i don't mind the focus on picard and data because they are the most watchable characters, lol. just like i don't mind voyager having alot of Seven stories. who else did you want them to focus on? geordie? troi?
Is Nemesis unfairly criticized?
- Thread starter Shinzon4u
- Start date
I think Nemesis is a big boring piece of shit with a semi-interesting space battle and I think that criticism is justified, but I can't speak for other people.
No, they made B4 unfunny comic relief instead.
And they forgot that Data had a emotion chip
They didn't quite forget it. He didn't have it in for the whole movie. Since he also kept it out for Insurrection, my head canon has it that, after how the Borg Queen was able to scare and manipulate him, he wound up realizing that the emotion chip wasn't working as he wanted it to and he didn't use it much.
But for proof that they didn't forget about the chip, it's on Data's desk in the deleted scene where Geordi and Worf clear out his quarters.
Since she got married at the beginning and got mind raped during her honeymoon...pretty certain the film needed a bit more story for Troi. Frying someone's brain while Riker beat them to death sounds about right level. Then lwxana comes and reduces shinzon to a vegetable.
I just couldn't get into it. Whenever I try to watch it, I could get up to maybe past the part where the crew and Shinzon meet, but I lose too much interest to keep watching.
No one other than Picard Data Riker and Shinzon had anything to do. It seemed like the other characters, Geordi, Crusher, Troi and Guinan were barely there, relegated to being background characters again.
It was kind of all over the place too in a way. They brought back Wesley (in a strange way) and then left him out and they brought in Worf (in a strange way too) again and left him out of much of the story.
Shinzon's motivations seemed so odd wanting to get revenge on the federation, even though he was abused all his life by Romulans.
I heard that if it a lot of the editing was left back in it would be better, but I still can't see be interested in it even if it was.
No one other than Picard Data Riker and Shinzon had anything to do. It seemed like the other characters, Geordi, Crusher, Troi and Guinan were barely there, relegated to being background characters again.
It was kind of all over the place too in a way. They brought back Wesley (in a strange way) and then left him out and they brought in Worf (in a strange way too) again and left him out of much of the story.
Shinzon's motivations seemed so odd wanting to get revenge on the federation, even though he was abused all his life by Romulans.
I heard that if it a lot of the editing was left back in it would be better, but I still can't see be interested in it even if it was.
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It wasn't revenge, that plays no part in his motivations. He conquered his hated Romulans, and wanted to ensure that nobody that could potentially subjugate him again could get the opportunity to. The Federation was just the first target. I'm sure Klingons were next on his list.
He was also crazy.
I don't so much mind the focus on Picard and Data (though I hate the ambiguity/messiness of the emotion chip narrative through the TNG movies) in Nemesis. However, I do mind that it gets really really boring as it goes along. I struggle to concentrate. And I enjoy action, don't get me wrong, but it is boring action, without rooting in a great, coherent character-driven storyline (or any great sci-fi ideas). To be honest, my feelings towards Nemesis are similar to my feelings on the Abrams movies - there's good stuff in there, lots of potential, on paper some interesting concepts, some fun action-movie madness, but it just doesn't grab my attention.
But then what do I know, I think Final Frontier is great...
But then what do I know, I think Final Frontier is great...
True, but it was the way it was portrayed that made the fans think that Shinzon wanted to get revenge or conquer the Federation. He appeared to be a generic villain.
I don't so much mind the focus on Picard and Data (though I hate the ambiguity/messiness of the emotion chip narrative through the TNG movies) in Nemesis. However, I do mind that it gets really really boring as it goes along. I struggle to concentrate. And I enjoy action, don't get me wrong, but it is boring action, without rooting in a great, coherent character-driven storyline (or any great sci-fi ideas). To be honest, my feelings towards Nemesis are similar to my feelings on the Abrams movies - there's good stuff in there, lots of potential, on paper some interesting concepts, some fun action-movie madness, but it just doesn't grab my attention.
But then what do I know, I think Final Frontier is great...
I used to root so much for Data to finally get emotions, but by First contact...IDK, not so much. They spent so much time and scenes on the Borg Queen talking about helping Data find his humanity and trying to seduce him, I felt it took up too much of the movie.
When they killed off Data in Nemesis, they went the heroic sacrifice route that was too telegraphed. or a little obvious, and it doesn't get as much a reaction that way.
And then an escape clause was added with Data downloading his mind into B4, presumably just in case they were to make another TNG movie with the full cast again.
So it was like using some of the same tricks from the TV show --villain with big ship wants to conquer, Main character makes heroic sacrifice but wait maybe not, thing.
Sometimes fans and movie goers can catch on to those things when they see it.
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To me NEM was really just a fanboi's wet dream that got greenlit
A fanboy who hadn't watched most of the series. :P
It's not for no reason tho'. This is Shinzon's first real life contact with a (half) human woman and he lusts after her. It demonstrates how much a hideously monstrous yet pathetically inexperienced human he is.For all its faults, NEM was the movie where they finally remembered that Troi isn't an ordinary human.
But of course, that doesn't excuse how horribly the character was treated for absolutely no reason.
Kor
Perhaps there could have been a better way to convey such a flaw without resorting to a three-way mind rape? Plus, having not experienced being human isn't really worth delving on since it doesn't really go anywhere. His problem isn't that he doesn't know what being human is like, his problem is that he's a psychopath. When the film spends more time showing off how evil Shinzon is and less time actually getting to the core of his character, you're going to have a very shallow character.
I think the mind-rape is a very harrowing way to disclose this inhuman human characteristic of Shinzon. It could've been executed better with more preliminary shots of Shinzon eyeing up an increasingly disturbed Troi perhaps. But as a device I think that's interesting myself -- he's one of us but he's not one of us. He's not just some alien. There's the pathetic feature of him that you'll find with violent anti-social types that are far closer to home. Troi then counters this attack on her later in the film as a way of weakening Shinzon on his otherwise virtually invincible Scimitar during the battle scenes. So it's both a useful and interesting device, these attacks and counter-attacks via telepathy.
The core of the Shinzon character is fleshed out and recounted. There's a touch of the Hitler about him. His zeal towards conquest is to prevent any possibility of being at the bottom rung of the ladder again. He's somewhat intrigued but also enraged that there's a more "perfect" version of him and he craves not only Picard's raw material but his destruction so Shinzon can become the complete person that he craves to be. Picard himself is thrown by him and left to ponder how malleable being a good person actually is and whether a few different decisions or misfortunes or whatever, that even he could've been the villain that his duplicate was.
If you think that kind of stuff is 'interesting', you're going to love all the Rape/Revenge movies that are out there. Take your pick. I Spit On Your Grave, Death Wish, Irreversible, Eye For An Eye. Heck, even the legendary Clint Eastwood did his own take with Sudden Impact.
Only difference here is that when bad things happen to the ladies in those movies, it's taken very seriously. In Nemesis, Picard does not give a flying crud that Troi was just mentally violated by Shinzon and his Viceroy. He just tells her to walk it off. Oh, and despite being told that she was violated, Picard doesn't take any precautions to safe guard the ship. They only raise shields AFTER he gets kidnapped. And when Picard is held captive onboard the Scimitar, does he bring any of this up to Shinzon? Of course not. All he cares about is nurturing this poor unfortunate soul who is still going to murder many of Picard's crew later on.
And let's be honest. Shinzon's inability to order the Scimitar to go full reverse when the Enterprise is slowly moving towards them played a bigger role than Troi figuring out where they are in via telepathy. Ergo, you didn't need to have that telepathy attack at all.
He doesn't tell her to walk it off. The discrepancy there is that Crusher is easy going on her diagnosis, ok. But Picard tells her -- to paraphrase -- this is a grave intergalactic crisis, that he needs her at her side (true). This might be a request handed out to any kind of essential officer that sustained a severe injury. Indeed, officers are expected to lay down their own lives if the circumstances demand it.
Shinzon is on the precipice of a mass invasion resulting in the deaths of untold billions and the absolute annihilation of the Federation. Stakes that are presumably not in play in all those rape/revenge movies you've watched. Time is also of the essence as Shinzon's intentions towards Picard aren't good. So he's suddenly going to shame Shinzon by citing Troi? I don't think so. Instead he uses his own intuitive knowledge of himself in an attempt to unnerve his near-duplicate before his small window of opportunity closes.
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