Spoilers Wonder Woman - Grading & Discussion

[Venardhi]

How did Diana defeat Ares? What did she personally choose to do? What did she overcome to gain the power she needed to do so?

She was created to destroy him, she furrowed her brow really hard and then intuitively made magic lightning to make the bad man go away. A better writer would have found a way for her to defeat him using knowledge or ability gained on her own, not given to her by god, or better yet offered a solution that didn't involve yet another CG brawl.

 

[dahj]

^^
Uhm, the movie isn't really about the physics of how she gets to throw lightning...

As for the "CG brawl" it's like 10 minutes long, and there's a whole lot of talking during it(probably more than actual fighting) where everything that Diana has learned of mankind comes to a head.

 

[Venardhi]

I'm not asking for the physics of it, I'm asking for Diana to earn her win. Divine privilege is not an accomplishment.

 

[Thestral]

She elected not to kill Doctor Poison and instead to reject Ares - War - because despite the great darkness she'd also seen the goodness and love of men like Steve Trevor? I mean, that was the whole point of everything once Ares revealed himself, he's trying to corrupt Diana and bring her down to a level of cynical despair, to declare humans not worth saving.

Hell, rejecting that despair and cynical bleakness is in everything she does. From ignoring Steve's advice and crossing No Man's Land to excorciating the general to calling out the best in people - "Who will sing for us?" (which really, that single line and delivery and what it represents is better than most superhero movies in its own right).

 

[Timelord79 (he/him)]

A different third act could have made this one a classic in the making IMO. The CGI punches and energy beams just don't carry any dramatic weight after a decade of seeing hundreds of variations on the same basic thing.

Ares has been at this for millennia. Surely he is a tired of this world by now. He has no one left to prove his philosophy to but Diana, so no matter if she is convinced or not his purpose is done. He has sown the seed for generations of future wars, probably even lain the groundwork for the end of humanity in time and nothing can kill him (something he may well be ready for) but Diana. Could they seriously not think of anything more interesting to do with that drama than have them punch each other with lightning bolts?

For me the lightning bolt throwing was about her realizing who she really is.
She is the daughter of Zeus.
And Ares tried to beat her by throwing lightning.
A bit of irony.
Harnessing that power was her heritage.

How else would you visualize the power of Zeus?

 

[Reverend]

For me the most important element in all of this is that she chose to go on the hero's path *before* she understood the extent of her powers. When she decided to take Steve and leave the island it wasn't because she knew she had the power to defeat Ares it's because she felt it was her responsibility and she only discovered her powers gradually along the way.
First when climbing the tower, then deflecting the bullets in the alley, crossing no man's land and finally facing off against Ares and claiming her heritage. That's not privilege bestowed, that's privilege earned.

That's in direct contrast to both Superman and Batman (and Spider-Man) who start off with power, each in their on way and for them the struggle is in what to do with it.
In this regard, I think Diana has a lot more in common with Steve Rogers than anyone else. He also was a good person who wasn't afraid to stand up to bullies regardless of his physical abilities.

 

[Australis]

Just back from seeing Wonder Woman. Holy shit, great superhero film! Really great! It's almost impossible to watch Gal Gadot, she's just SO beautiful! Stunningly pretty! (see below) But the character shines through, her compassion and strength, and the actress is well up to the task. Beyond that, the story was great, the other actors, the music. I think the last 2 films that impressed me that much were Arrival and Interstellar. Yep, I went there. Highly recommended,. Trying not to overhype it, but... holy shit!

To expand a little...

I was very disappointed when the earlier proposed version that may have had Megan Gale as Diana was shelved, as I thought she would have been perfect:

I stand corrected, Gal Gadot was even better than I'd hoped. She's very underrated as an actress.

And as I said, stunningly pretty, which people seem to be shying away from. She stood out from the people around her, which was perfect, emphasising her otherness. I have no problem mentioning her beauty, because she has substance too. I've seen pretty before, but nothing behind it, no person you'd want to know. I'd really like to know Diana and Gal, they both seem like marvellous, interesting people, and that gives the film extra spin for me.

I found all the characters well done (except one). And the way some of their character traits are brought out with just a few lines was very good writing. A lot here are being unkind about the director and Snyder, and yes, BvS and MOS aren't all they could have been, but they aren't that bad. The fact we have these movies at all means this is a kind of Golden Age. Could they be better? Sure, But they can only get better.

I was considering going to see SW:TFA, SW:RO, GotG2, and Arrival, but didn't. I will go and see WW again.

Steve's loss was a great point, as it showed Diana the meaning of sacrifice. Also, she was learning the whole demigod thing as her mother had refused to tell her about it, even when she was leaving the island, and was able to defeat Ares when she finally came into her own.

My one complaint? I disagree with most people here when I say... Chris Pine. To me, he was Chris Pine being Chris Pine in a movie with Chris Pine. Like John Wayne being John Wayne in True Grit. Don't get me wrong, Steve was a good character and I feel necessary and well written, but I personally find Pine a little... one-note. I could almost imagine him saying, as he flew the plane away, "Scotty, beam me out now!" But a minor niggle.

I have hopes the DCEU will pick up a little more after this.

The one great shame? Gadot was paid $300,000. For the fantastic work she did, which contributed to its success, naturally. WB should be ashamed of themselves, and cut her a bonus check. Seriously. I hope someone starts a petition for this.

 

[Nyotarules]

My one complaint? I disagree with most people here when I say... Chris Pine. To me, he was Chris Pine being Chris Pine in a movie with Chris Pine.

ITA he was Nu Kirk time travelling via the Guardian of forever, I bet this is how he escaped the plane. I expect to see him in the sequel playing Steve Trevor's great grand nephew or something lol

The one great shame? Gadot was paid $300,000. For the fantastic work she did, which contributed to its success, naturally. WB should be ashamed of themselves, and cut her a bonus check. Seriously. I hope someone starts a petition for this.

I'll sign the petition! she needs another zero on that cheque!

 

[Timby]

Don't do this.

 

[{ Emilia }]

Hell, rejecting that despair and cynical bleakness is in everything she does. From ignoring Steve's advice and crossing No Man's Land to excorciating the general to calling out the best in people - "Who will sing for us?" (which really, that single line and delivery and what it represents is better than most superhero movies in its own right

This.

And why Wonder Woman worked for me:

1. It had heart. After all the grittiness and the jerk-qualities of the protagonists of Man of Steel and BvS it was nice to see a hero I can genuinely like. The movie managed to really make me care about the protagonists which is very rare for me in Superhero movies. I’m glad Patty Jenkins paid so much attention to that aspect. I’m sure much of this is also down to Gal Gadot who was brilliant. She IS Wonder Woman. It’s like she was born to play that role. She managed to carry the movie and in all those close-ups she had such great presence and expressiveness and was never boring to watch. Lots of little details and nuances about her acting.
She also had this perfect mix of strength and fierceness on the one hand, and an incredible warmth and even vulnerability on the other hand. Little moments like the smile she gave Charlie (?) after telling him that they need him to sing for them… so heartwarming. Wonder Woman managed to inspire those around her. Can you say the same for Snyder’s Superman or Batman?
I’m so tired of angsty traumatized superheroes. This movie proved that you can make emotionally engaging heroes that still have a positive outlook (also, see: Supergirl).

2. The images: It is a truly beautiful movie. It’s full of gorgeous shots without feeling overly artificial and stylized like Zack Snyder’s nonsense. It even manages to get across some of the horrors of WW1 in a way that suits a Superhero movie. I don’t care for extremely gritty content in those movies: If I want to see a depressing and awful look at war, I can watch a documentary (well, not on WW1) or a good war movie. But this is a superhero movie so come on… it’s ultimately a popcorn movie and I don’t care to take a superhero movie with the dire and gritty, insanely melodramatic and completely irony-free mood that Zack Snyder loves so much. It’s a movie about a person with superpowers so give me a break. Snyder’s pathetic way to treat the genre with serious pomp and bombast is misguided if you ask me. Wonder Woman was still a fun adventure movie, like a good Indiana Jones movie and still full of grand images.
The movie offered truly iconic images. The lighting, the colours, the framing… a joy to watch. I’ll take the iconic images Jenkins created over having the potentially iconic fight between Batman and Superman take place in a filthy, broken down bathroom.

3. War is the villain. Of course, it wasn’t “the Germans”, despite what Chris Pine first told her when he reached the island. He even admitted later that he is to blame for the state of the world, too. That nobody is innocent. Even Ares wasn’t evil personified because he was partly right: it’s humans that can’t keep the peace even after they’ve agreed on it. Now the movie obviously didn’t reach insane philosophical heights but then again which superhero movie does?

4. It managed to feel big, iconic and important (gravitas!) without being overly melodramatic and bloated. Marvel’s movies usually feel too silly for me to really care about what’s going on. DC’s movies try to be epic but Snyder overdid it at the expense of characters and story.
Wonder Woman was the perfect mix.

I find most superhero movies mediocre at best. I guess I'm just not a huge fan of the genre and I have a particular dislike for movies with multiple superheroes that have everything exploding and everybody jumping from skyscraper to skyscraper for what seems like hours.
I really like Nolan's Batman and now I really like Wonder Woman. I enjoyed Doctor Strange and the second Captain America movie. Superman 2 is quite alright, too, for its age.

 

[Reverend]

I’m so tired of angsty traumatized superheroes. This movie proved that you can make emotionally engaging heroes that still have a positive outlook (also, see: Supergirl).

Just to hammer the point home: Superman's trauma is that he grew up "different" (with loving and supporting parents, mind.) And while Batman's is admittedly more immediate and damaging, consider for a moment that Diana was raised by a community of women who were enslaved and abused at the hands of men.

With a set-up like that it could easily have gone the route of man-hating and victim-hood personified, and yet the Amazons were shown to be culturally mature and intelligent. Enlightened even. Those woman did not allow their past to negatively shape their outlook, nor did they inflict their own suffering on others out of spite or fear. They instead instilled in Diana a deep-seated compassion and openness you don't often see in modern heroes.

I really like Nolan's Batman and now I really like Wonder Woman. I enjoyed Doctor Strange and the second Captain America movie. Superman 2 is quite alright, too, for its age.

If you haven't already, I'd recommend you consider checking out 'Logan'.
It's grim and sad but the kind of sad that's almost cathartic and has about ten times more heart and character than most other superhero movies combined (also, no skyscraper hopping in sight. ) Indeed, it's so low-key it's barely a superhero movie at all. No costumes, no skybeams, no McGuffins. It has more in common with movies like 'Creed', 'Unforgiven' and 'Children of Men' IMO.

 

[dahj]

Superman's trauma is that he grew up "different"

You can make light of it all you like, but that angle of Snyder's Superman is precisely why he has a big fanbase among LGBTQ and people of color. So it comes across as kinda annoying when (mostly) white straight guys criticize him for "moping around", and that he should "just cheer up" because "being different isn't a big deal", which are basically the usual condescending things that someone who has never faced any kind of discrimination would say...

 

[Reverend]

You can make light of it all you like, but that angle of Snyder's Superman is precisely why he has a big fanbase among LGBTQ and people of color. So it comes across as kinda annoying when (mostly) white straight guys criticize him for "moping around", and that he should "just cheer up" because "being different isn't a big deal", which are basically the usual condescending things that someone who has never faced any kind of discrimination would say...

I wasn't making light of it, just contrasting it vis-à-vis Diana's situation and reaction. I'm not playing down anyone's struggles, but growing up with deep anxiety about your own nature and you fit into the world (an experience shared by more than just persons of the LGTB and/or non-white persuasion, incidentally--indeed, Superman has typically been an immigrant story...but I digress) is a different order of magnitude to a child witnessing their parent's murder up close. Which is again, a different order of magnitude to being raised by a community of former slaves and all that such would imply.

And really, the criticism such as it is isn't directed at the character of Superman on a conceptual level so much as how said character has been portrayed in Snyder's films thus far. That specific version IMO treats the aforementioned inner struggle and anxiety in a very superficial and shockingly self-centred way that's frankly unworthy of both the subject matter and the legacy of the character.

 

[Gaith]

With a set-up like that it could easily have gone the route of man-hating and victim-hood personified, and yet the Amazons were shown to be culturally mature and intelligent. Enlightened even. Those woman did not allow their past to negatively shape their outlook, nor did they inflict their own suffering on others out of spite or fear. They instead instilled in Diana a deep-seated compassion and openness you don't often see in modern heroes.

Okay, but I still want to know what they were doing all that warrior-practice for. Purely in case they were invaded someday? If so, why weren't there better mechanical defenses overlooking the beaches? Did they intend to ever return to the world proper to hunt Ares, or were they content to stay at home, hoping he'd die of old age or something? Was Diana so hugely unpopular that not one of her warrior sisters volunteered to accompany her Princess on her quest? Or did any volunteer, but were disallowed for some (what?) reason?

(To be fair, I have the same gripe with Doctor Strange, in which the crowds of practicing sorcerrors are completely forgotten when the Sanctums are attacked.)

 

[Reverend]

First off, I just want to address a common misconception: the Amazons aren't a warrior culture. IIRC from the Pérez run in the comics they're a civilisation of about 20,000 women and most of them aren't soldiers. They're farmers and artist and architects and poets and bakers and blacksmiths and sculptors and shepherds, etc. etc.
What soldiers they do have however are the best in the world, mostly because they're immortal and have had thousands of years of training, plus real live practice during the revolt.

The closest comparison is probably the elves from LotR. It's *that* level of regimented precision and discipline.

Okay, but I still want to know what they were doing all that warrior-practice for. Purely in case they were invaded someday? If so, why weren't there better mechanical defenses overlooking the beaches? Did they intend to ever return to the world proper to hunt Ares, or were they content to stay at home, hoping he'd die of old age or something? Was Diana so hugely unpopular that not one of her warrior sisters volunteered to accompany her Princess on her quest? Or did any volunteer, but were disallowed for some (what?) reason?

It's specifically stated that Zeus created the island so that Ares could never find them and left them the godkiller so that they would have a weapon in case he ever did. They also stated (perhaps more in hope than anything) that they thought it was possible Ares died of his wounds. Either way, they're not about to uproot everything just because one man says it's the end of the world.
More likely their reaction would be to dig in and fortify, then wait and see for maybe a century or two. We never know because we never see the senators come of a decision as Diana takes matters into her own hands. Also bear in mind that the backstory we were given were those told to a child. As Hippolyta says and we find out later, the reality is a bit more complicated than that.

As for others going with her: she snuck out on her own. The only ones that knew she was leaving were Hippolyta and her guards and their duty is to their Queen.

(To be fair, I have the same gripe with Doctor Strange, in which the crowds of practicing sorcerrors are completely forgotten when the Sanctums are attacked.)

A bit off topic, but most of those guys were in the Kamar-Taj. When each Sanctorum was attacked, the first thing they did was sever the gateway to prevent reinforcements.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

It had heart. After all the grittiness and the jerk-qualities of the protagonists of Man of Steel and BvS it was nice to see a hero I can genuinely like. The movie managed to really make me care about the protagonists which is very rare for me in Superhero movies. I’m glad Patty Jenkins paid so much attention to that aspect

...and Zach Snyder. She did not do this on her own, and much of what you like I her character was patterned on the MCU's Captain America.

Wonder Woman managed to inspire those around her. Can you say the same for Snyder’s Superman or Batman?

Batman is a vigilante. His very nature is not to wave flags on behalf of the people, or lead them to action.

Superman is far different than WW in that he's so above humanity (where power is concerned) that he's seen as a Godly kind of character, but the price of humanity's idolatry (and its effect on Superman) was believably addressed in Dawn of Justice. That's how a superhero would be treated in the real world, and certainly has roots in various comic stories published over the decades..

I’m so tired of angsty traumatized superheroes. This movie proved that you can make emotionally engaging heroes that still have a positive outlook (also, see: Supergirl).

There's a significant difference in how the DC films are handled (serious, with more realistic behavior from the main characters) than anything currently produced for TV. Night and day.

The images: It is a truly beautiful movie. It’s full of gorgeous shots without feeling overly artificial and stylized like Zack Snyder’s nonsense. It even manages to get across some of the horrors of WW1 in a way that suits a Superhero movie. I don’t care for extremely gritty content in those movies: If I want to see a depressing and awful look at war, I can watch a documentary (well, not on WW1) or a good war movie..

Eh??? Aside from Themyscira, the entire film was painted as dark & gritty (as it had to be, considering the specific period of history)--the streets and Supreme War Council meeting rooms in London, the towns and fields in Belgium and certainly the entire final act. It feels like a world with the yoke of self-destructive evil running through the streets. This is right in tone and imagery with the rest of the DC movies. There's no sun-drenched streets with grinning super-beings skipping around here.

Marvel’s movies usually feel too silly for me to really care about what’s going on

Well, I can agree with that. The very reason the Captain America films are the lone jewels in the MCU's crown.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

Well I think we can at least all agree it's the first legitimately good female led superhero movie, no?

Wonder Woman is--without question--the greatest live action superheroine production. Nothing comes close, and most are low grade embarrassments standing next to this film, including the 1984 Supergirl, which--at least--had near perfect casting in the title role. Some might be fond of The New Original Wonder Woman (the 1975 pilot movie which introduced Lynda Carter's version) and the 1976-77 1st season set during World War 2 (raises hand), but it pales as a superheroine adaptation next to this film.

Few superhero adaptations are hard stamped as the "textbook" example of a particular character like Wonder Woman.

I mean unless anyone has an irrational soft spot for Elektra or Catwoman?

No, but I have a place for both in the trash can.

 

[Australis]

Thought I forgot to include. I think the movie benefited from having one superhero to concentrate on, rather than multiple, which gets distracting as your eyes dart around the screen, or you wonder what the other guy's up to.

 

[Neroon]

Try to add some actual substance the next time, or you're liable to get a warning

 

[Venardhi]

That $300,000 is just the baseline of what will surely be a bigger payout.