Spoilers Wonder Woman - Grading & Discussion

[Dream]

My problem with Henry Cavill making more money is that I find Cavill's Superman to be one of the worst superheroes in the modern era.

The guy is bland as white bread, not much of a personality, needed to be told to be hero by his space dad, and is mopey as hell. Call him Mopeyman instead of Superman. I don't know how much of this is his acting or the writing, but even good actors can elevate badly written material. The colorless world that Zack keeps using REALLY doesn't help.

Batman isn't much better, being a huge dickweed that brands criminals. Ben Affleck also gives off a "I don't give a shit" vibe, just look at all the SAD Affleck memes that have exploded online.

Wonder Woman is the first DCEU hero that I actually like. I WANT to rewatch her movie, I WANT to see her sequel.

 

[F. King Daniel]

I'm a woman and I'd wear those dresses. Nothing about being sexualized, it's just stylish.

I don't see sexual objectification there and I don't see her using it either.

Not objectification, just awareness of her own sex appeal. She's not as sweet and innocent anymore.

 

[{ Emilia }]

Not objectification, just awareness of her own sex appeal. She's not as sweet and innocent anymore.

I don't think we have to go through this whole "women need to be pure and innocent" yet again. Being aware of her sex appeal doesn't change her values or her personality for the worse.
What is this? The 1950s?

 

[F. King Daniel]

I don't think we have to go through this whole "women need to be pure and innocent" yet again. Being aware of her sex appeal doesn't change her values or her personality for the worse.
What is this? The 1950s?

Never said she needed to. Merely that I personally really liked her portrayal in WW, I can fully understand why she'd have changed in the century between that and BvS, but still miss it.

It's nothing more than one guy's preference regarding one character in two movies. Not about women in general.

 

[{ Emilia }]

You said she's not "innocent" anymore because she's aware of her sex appeal. I find that very disturbing to be honest. That is implying that being aware of one's sexuality is kind of a sin and makes you less innocent.
It's an argument that is only ever made with women for some reason, because somehow we're seen as less "pure and innocent" if we're aware of our sexuality and sexually active. My point is that has fuck all to do with "innocence".
(It also doesn't make her less "sweet" unless it is implied that women are only sweet if they're not sexually active.)

In any case, I really find the implications behind such wording seriously disturbing and you might want to reconsider that.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Perhaps you're reading into things that aren't there. She's not innocent anymore because she's now wise to the world around her. She's lost the wide-eyed wonder she had in WW. Guess what? I've lost the wide eyed wonder I used to have, and I've long since lost my innocence. And I'm a guy.

No "sin" involved, just learning what the world is like and how it affects us and how we change as a result.

 

[Reverend]

It's not like she was entirely ignorant even before she left the island. I mean she read all twelve volumes of "Pleasures of the Flesh" and you just know those things were fully illustrated! And yeah, equating innocence with sexual ignorance in adults is pretty backwards.

All she really lacked was personal experience with the outside world and really, that's the main difference I see between her at the end of WW and her at the beginning of BvS: experience. She's not *totally* jaded, but after a century of living in man's world she's had plenty of practice in dealing with people.
Not much to go on to really judge hat her day-to-day life is like, but I'd guess she's a bit standoffish on a personal level for the reasons immortals usually are in such stories: people don't last. The longer she lives, the more she'll start to notice that even the older people at those parties weren't even born when she left home (see also: Highlander & Doctor Who.)

 

[{ Emilia }]

Perhaps you're reading into things that aren't there. She's not innocent anymore because she's now wise to the world around her. She's lost the wide-eyed wonder she had in WW.

You specifically made the connection to her "sex appeal" so don't tell me I'm reading things that aren't there. It was right there in your words. You're welcome to refuse to reconsider your own words/attitudes, but this whole "moving the goalposts" thing gets tired. I honestly thought you'd see why the way you worded it was disturbing.

Do have to remind you?

Not objectification, just awareness of her own sex appeal. She's not as sweet and innocent anymore.

You made the connection and it's a pretty messed up one I'm very tired of, speaking as a woman who has encountered this trope way too many times.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Perhaps I should have said, "she's not as naive" instead of "she's not as sweet and innocent"?

I'm sorry if you found my wording distasteful, I didn't mean to cause any bother.

 

[JD]

I have no fucking clue about the comics because I don't care about them at all. The movie and TV versions of Superman that I've been exposed to where nice and funny, though. Reeve and Cain were a little clumsy, kind and of course sort of inspiring.

This attitude about the comics kind of baffles me, when I watch adaptations the first thing I want to do is go back and check out the source material. The first thing I started reading after I saw the movie was one of the WW comics I got a month or two ago.

 

[{ Emilia }]

This attitude about the comics kind of baffles me, when I watch adaptations the first thing I want to do is go back and check out the source material. The first thing I started reading after I saw the movie was one of the WW comics I got a month or two ago.

I just don't like comics.
There are some European comics I like in theory but I haven't touched those since my teenage years either.

 

[Australis]

The way she talks to Bruce, the dresses she wears which were more revealing than in WW.

Of course, fashions change. Attitudes of sexuality change. But that's all I have to say on this. Except I might go and see it again today.

 

[Gaith]

There's a whole lot of legitimate criticisms to make of BvS, but unduly sexualizing Diana isn't one of them.

 

[dahj]

My problem with Henry Cavill making more money

Every time a controversy erupts over WW(armpits, protein bars), I think "Well, at least the next one can't be stupider". Yet the clickbait media never ceases to deliver...

Using Henry Cavill, who makes less money than Amy Adams in the Superman movies, as some sort of example is idiotic beyond belief in the first place, but as it turns out, Gal made as much, and very likely more money than Henry when bonuses kick in.

It's especially annoying because wage gap is still a serious issue, and this shallow, easily disproved, sensationalist crap does a disservice to having people take it seriously, and essentially just gives fodder to deniers that the issue even exist in the first place...

 

[Robert Maxwell]

Everyone should be very glad Joss Whedon's script didn't get made.

 

[kirk55555]

Everyone should be very glad Joss Whedon's script didn't get made.

Holy crap. I mean, I'm a fan of Whedon's, and I'm excited for him to make a Batgirl film, but that Wonder Woman script, or at least the sections shown there, are both terrible writing and honestly kind of horrifying. But he made it a long time ago, and I don't think one terrible, terrible script means he's incapable of doing better. Hell, he made Avengers years after that WW script and it was great, so I really want to see his take on Batgirl. That said, its a good thing his WW script didn't get made and he should be ashamed that he wrote that garbage.

 

[Robert Maxwell]

Holy crap. I mean, I'm a fan of Whedon's, and I'm excited for him to make a Batgirl film, but that Wonder Woman script, or at least the sections shown there, are both terrible writing and honestly kind of horrifying. But he made it a long time ago, and I don't think one terrible, terrible script means he's incapable of doing better. Hell, he made Avengers years after that WW script and it was great, so I really want to see his take on Batgirl. That said, its a good thing his WW script didn't get made and he should be ashamed that he wrote that garbage.

11 years ago was... 2006. Not exactly the Stone Age. But yes, hopefully he has learned.

 

[Ovation]

No screenwriters with more than a couple scripts under their belts avoid the occasional turd. This particular turd, though, is rather spectacular in its turdiness.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

And how do we know this is authentic (as in Whedon actually wrote it)? I'm not trying to defend it or him, just questioning the source.

 

[LJones41]

My problem with Henry Cavill making more money is that I find Cavill's Superman to be one of the worst superheroes in the modern era.

How much money do you think Henry Cavill made when he first did "Man of Steel"? Surely you don't believe those reports that he made $14 million? The Warner Bros. suits would have been crazy to pay any actor that much money for his or her first time as lead in a comic book movie . . . especially if said performer was mainly known for a cable television series that had been off the air for two to three years.

Using Henry Cavill, who makes less money than Amy Adams in the Superman movies, as some sort of example is idiotic beyond belief in the first place, but as it turns out, Gal made as much, and very likely more money than Henry when bonuses kick in.

Why would you assume that Gal Gadot made more money once the bonuses kicked in?


I won't deny that "Wonder Woman" is a first-rate film. But I get the feeling that gender politics is playing a major role in the uber positive reaction to the film. People are so busy praising Wonder Woman's character for being "optimistic, compassionate, courageous, a badass, etc." that many seemed to be ignoring some of Diana's personal flaws. I'm not complaining about Diana's flaws. Actually, I'm rather relieved for I had feared that Patty Jenkins and the screenwriters would transform Wonder Woman into some one-note figure of perefction. But very few people are willing to discuss Diana's flaws.

As for the movie, I thought it certainly wasn't the best DCEU film I had ever seen.