Spoilers Wonder Woman - Grading & Discussion

[Captain Craig]

Grade: B+

Easily the best DCEU film. The other 3 are middling to me with parts I like and parts that were missed opportunities. WW had a tonality shift that also helped. Whoever the next director is for the Flash film please take note. Dark and gritty works for Batman, might work on Cyborg and to some extent can on Aquaman but making Man of Steel so sullen was a bad call. Glad Jenkins went another way here.

I read the first 7 pages so I'll just largely be repeating the praise. I gave it a B+ cause I feel there is still room for that home run film in the DCEU.

Also, did the people who actually graded the film an F and D actually try to defend that grade?

 

[Trekker4747]

The thing is with Jenkins/Snyder is that while he may have had some level of input in WW it's also very much not one of "his movies" the entire look and tone of it is a stark contrast to everything the man has ever done. So, yeah, he may have some input, guidelines for the DCEU consistency in look/feel, and helped with the more action-y scenes and stuff but it's very much Jenkin's movie and she deserves most of the credit for the movie's financial and critical success. So the praise being lavished on her and ignored on Snyder isn't with intent of "only criticizing Snyder for failures" is because she deserves it because it is HER movie. The director makes the movie, makes the look of it, the feel of it, coaches and directs the cast, selects the costumes, lighting, etc. The producer gives guidelines and maybe some occasional input. (The biggest criticism against Marvel is that their producers wrest too much control over the movies hence so many of the problems Whedon had with Ultron and why he left the MCU they wanted too much control over the movie itself beyond what usually the producers and studio do (they insisted on the "vision pool" scene (which ended up heavily cut up and not making much sense in the final product, while being against the flashbacks Natasha had with her time with her previous employers and her hysterectomy.)

I'm not sure we've seen/heard much on how much control WB/DC is wresting over the movies to the frustration of the directors. It would seem not much other than what happened with Suicide Squad, given we've yet to see/hear any complaints from the directors. (Again, Whedon and Favreau have both had problems with Marvel when it came to respective sequel movies being weighed down with "universe building stuff" at Marvel's insistence.

Yeah, Zach Snyder was the producer. He approved the budget allocated for the sets and CGI used for the No Man's Land battle. Go him. Jenkins worked with the actors, told them what to do, and did the hands on stuff on the look and feel of the movie. Only thing I criticize on her is a bit overuse of the "bullet time" thing but the actions scenes with WW were good, even if she had help due to inexperience.

 

[DigificWriter]

The thing is with Jenkins/Snyder is that while he may have had some level of input in WW it's also very much not one of "his movies" the entire look and tone of it is a stark contrast to everything the man has ever done. So, yeah, he may have some input, guidelines for the DCEU consistency in look/feel, and helped with the more action-y scenes and stuff but it's very much Jenkin's movie and she deserves most of the credit for the movie's financial and critical success. So the praise being lavished on her and ignored on Snyder isn't with intent of "only criticizing Snyder for failures" is because she deserves it because it is HER movie. The director makes the movie, makes the look of it, the feel of it, coaches and directs the cast, selects the costumes, lighting, etc. The producer gives guidelines and maybe some occasional input. (The biggest criticism against Marvel is that their producers wrest too much control over the movies hence so many of the problems Whedon had with Ultron and why he left the MCU they wanted too much control over the movie itself beyond what usually the producers and studio do (they insisted on the "vision pool" scene (which ended up heavily cut up and not making much sense in the final product, while being against the flashbacks Natasha had with her time with her previous employers and her hysterectomy.)

I'm not sure we've seen/heard much on how much control WB/DC is wresting over the movies to the frustration of the directors. It would seem not much other than what happened with Suicide Squad, given we've yet to see/hear any complaints from the directors. (Again, Whedon and Favreau have both had problems with Marvel when it came to respective sequel movies being weighed down with "universe building stuff" at Marvel's insistence.

Yeah, Zach Snyder was the producer. He approved the budget allocated for the sets and CGI used for the No Man's Land battle. Go him. Jenkins worked with the actors, told them what to do, and did the hands on stuff on the look and feel of the movie. Only thing I criticize on her is a bit overuse of the "bullet time" thing but the actions scenes with WW were good, even if she had help due to inexperience.

As noted, Snyder worked very closely with Jenkins to shape the film, almost serving as a "ghost-director", so it is almost impossible to divorce his input from the final product and offer up an honest appraisal of it.

 

[kirk55555]

That shocking moment, when you learn that Snyder helped craft the story for Wonder Woman and produced the movie.

Castigate him for his failures and ignore him for his successes. Can't win for losing.

Patty Jenkins has said that she and Snyder worked very closely together, and we saw BtS stills of him standing next to her on set as she gave Gal instructions.

At this point, trying to 'downplay' Snyder's links to this film is living in Alternative Facts-Ville.

His "story" credit is almost certainly just for the framing device section of the movie which connects to BvS, I seriously doubt he was involved with any other story element because of how unsnyder-ish the movie is. As for being a producer, Stan Lee and Avi Arad are listed as producers on a ton of Marvel movies, but that doesn't mean they ever did any work as producers. This movie succeeded because of the actors, Patty Jenkins and Allan Heinberg (who wrote the screenplay and probably most of the story). Snyder was not a factor in the movie being so great. His crappy philosophy wouldn't let him make a movie like Wonder Woman.

Snyder is basically Michael Bay if Bay was both actively disdainful of heroes and thought he was an artsy director (say what you want about Bay, he at least doesn't seem to have any illusions about what kind of work he does). Also, Snyder's allergy to color would have killed him in the first part of the movie, and his complete inability to do female characters (which Sucker Punch alone shows very well) would also show how little he had to do with the good parts of the movie. The only reason Wonder Woman worked in BvS is Gal Gadot and the fact that she barely got anything to do except fight.

Snydere may have been involved in what I consider the weakest part of the WW though, the fight scenes. I could stand it in this film, but that overdone slow mo, while better here then in something like 300, was still a bit annoying and very Snyder-ish.

 

[DigificWriter]

His "story" credit is almost certainly just for the framing device section of the movie which connects to BvS, I seriously doubt he was involved with any other story element because of how unsnyder-ish the movie is. As for being a producer, Stan Lee and Avi Arad are listed as producers on a ton of Marvel movies, but that doesn't mean they ever did any work as producers. This movie succeeded because of the actors, Patty Jenkins and Allan Heinberg (who wrote the screenplay and probably most of the story). Snyder was not a factor in the movie being so great. His crappy philosophy wouldn't let him make a movie like Wonder Woman.

Snyder is basically Michael Bay if Bay was both actively disdainful of heroes and thought he was an artsy director (say what you want about Bay, he at least doesn't seem to have any illusions about what kind of work he does). Also, Snyder's allergy to color would have killed him in the first part of the movie, and his complete inability to do female characters (which Sucker Punch alone shows very well) would also show how little he had to do with the good parts of the movie. The only reason Wonder Woman worked in BvS is Gal Gadot and the fact that she barely got anything to do except fight.

Snydere may have been involved in what I consider the weakest part of the WW though, the fight scenes. I could stand it in this film, but that overdone slow mo, while better here then in something like 300, was still a bit annoying and very Snyder-ish.

Are you really going to dispute Patty Jenkins' own statements regarding Snyder's level of direct involvement with Wonder Woman?

 

[Nerys Myk]

it doesn't fit his narrative

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

Are you really going to dispute Patty Jenkins' own statements regarding Snyder's level of direct involvement with Wonder Woman?

Its a pointless exercise in trying to split the DC films into "dark" and "light". DC is not the MCU--its not filled with characters engaged in G.I. Joe cartoon theatrics or firing off one-liners like the worst of Arnold Schwarzenegger's 80s/90s action films.

This is a serious DC film universe, and whether some like it or not, Wonder Woman did not end with Diana standing on a mountain smiling to watch the sun rise while holding hands with local schoolchildren. Her takeaway was that all men--the "good" and the "bad" count evil people among their numbers (as argued by Trevor), and in the fight against evil, there will be sacrifices--at times in a personal sense (Trevor). That was deliberately moving the film toward the attitude Diana displays in Dawn of Justice. She's not the Super Friends, and as great as Donner's Superman was, she's not that, either. All part of the overall DC film plan. Again, some can continue to think WW and the other films are dissimilar, but the actual film sends the message that Snyder was shaping the films to embrace a certain tone, a far from perfect world which faces challenges that do not always end with the hero celebrated in parades.

 

[Tosk]

BvS ended with a hero being celebrated in a parade.

 

[Nerys Myk]

BvS ended with a hero being celebrated in a parade.

Two parades

 

[Venardhi]

Posing as. That's my only criticism of the movie is they skipped too quickly to the beam warfare instead of having Ares do his subtle window trickery some more. It's actually quite clever, what's gong on there and the importance of having Ares be a Brit, but it's brushed by far too quickly.

Actually, ok, that's my only other criticism that she apparently does actually kill Ares.

A different third act could have made this one a classic in the making IMO. The CGI punches and energy beams just don't carry any dramatic weight after a decade of seeing hundreds of variations on the same basic thing.

Ares has been at this for millennia. Surely he is a tired of this world by now. He has no one left to prove his philosophy to but Diana, so no matter if she is convinced or not his purpose is done. He has sown the seed for generations of future wars, probably even lain the groundwork for the end of humanity in time and nothing can kill him (something he may well be ready for) but Diana. Could they seriously not think of anything more interesting to do with that drama than have them punch each other with lightning bolts?

 

[Gaith]

It's clear that she's quite knowledgeable of the human capacity for cruelty and viciousness. She simply can't accept it in the "good guys" at first. In fact, that's a key part of her entire arc. She's naive, not a child.

I said she was "intellectually" childish, not literally a child, and naiveté is a big part of that. Someone who thinks entire wars can be simplified to "bad guys" and cruelty, atrocity-free "good guys" has a child's conception of war and humanity's capacity for violence, period.

Who was left standing after that fight?
Hint: (It wasn't the Germans)

The party with the numerical advantage, the home field advantage, the horses, and the ones who weren't confused as hell from going from nightime to broad daylight in the course of a few minutes. What are you even saying here? The movie clearly shows Amazons falling from bullet hits.

 

[Hound of UIster]

Could they seriously not think of anything more interesting to do with that drama than have them punch each other with lightning bolts?

It's influenced Snyder: so probably not.

 

[doylem1]

Watched it today and kinda got a Captain America 1st Avenger vibe when she finally left Paradise Island and got to London. Similar type of films. To me anyway.

 

[Venardhi]

It's influenced Snyder: so probably not.

It is sad that for all his visual talent he just doesn't really have much grasp on narrative and character. Some directors should really just stick to letting writers handle these things.

 

[JacksonArcher]

It's really unfair to Patty Jenkins that people are trying to take away from her incredible accomplishment of directing this great movie by allocating some of the credit to Zack Snyder, who was pretty much "producer-in-name-only".

It would be no different if people tried to allocate more credit to Christopher Nolan on Man of Steel. In that case, Nolan actually came up with the idea for Man of Steel with David Goyer and was an active producer on the movie. You didn't see anyone taking anything away from Snyder's accomplishments on that movie. Zack Snyder definitively directed Man of Steel just like Patty Jenkins definitively directed Wonder Woman.

I really believe Snyder's contributions to Wonder Woman were minimal at best.

 

[JanewayRulz!]

It's really unfair to Patty Jenkins that people are trying to take away from her incredible accomplishment of directing this great movie by allocating some of the credit to Zack Snyder, who was pretty much "producer-in-name-only".

It would be no different if people tried to allocate more credit to Christopher Nolan on Man of Steel. In that case, Nolan actually came up with the idea for Man of Steel with David Goyer and was an active producer on the movie. You didn't see anyone taking anything away from Snyder's accomplishments on that movie. Zack Snyder definitively directed Man of Steel just like Patty Jenkins definitively directed Wonder Woman.

I really believe Snyder's contributions to Wonder Woman were minimal at best.

NEVER LET YOUR GUARD DOWN!

YOU EXPECT THE BATTLE TO BE FAIR!

 

[DigificWriter]

It's really unfair to Patty Jenkins that people are trying to take away from her incredible accomplishment of directing this great movie by allocating some of the credit to Zack Snyder

Bullshit.

I really believe Snyder's contributions to Wonder Woman were minimal at best.

So you're calling Patty Jenkins a liar? Because she has said in several interviews that she and Snyder worked very closely together.

 

[FreezeC77]

I gave it a B. It was much better than any other DCEU movie, but there were some issues which really irked me.

I felt like the dialogue and speaking was much too modern. Pine might of well have been playing a character in the Justice League movie for how little he sounded like someone of 100 years ago.

The fight scenes were just a mess for me. Too much cg and style like the 300 movies. Maybe not as slomod to death, but not a high point for me.

Gal Gadot is like A+++ and just carries it on her own even with these flaws which did take up a big chunk of the film.

 

[crookeddy]

Anyone remember the loooooooooooonnnnnnggggggggg thread discussion how Gal Gadot won't possibly make a good Wonder Woman?

 

[Ovation]

Not with any fondness, no.