My theory on why Kes wasn't a more beloved character. Also opinion on Lien. post-"Voyager."

[Refuge]

I was watching the other night and Jennifer's name came up in the opening credits really early.. I must look again because I don't think it was alphabetical after 'starring' and 'also starring'. The Ocampa were like a catalyst to kicking off the whole adventure. I personally believe Kes was part of the new creation of Voyager as a show and a new creation of a species in the Delta Quadrant. There probably was expectations for Kes. like Neeix to be given a certain amount of longevity as characters. I don't *know* for sure but it would make sense.

The fact we can talk about her presence is that she had one. She made a mark, so I thank her for being part of something I appreciate.

 

[Lynx]

I don't think her character really had much room to be anything substantial. All essential roles on the ship were pretty much taken up! The only way I think Kes could have been given more prominence is if she and Neelix truly coupled-up. Married. What have you. And then her role would expand beyond being the doctor's nurse.

Incidentally... why didn't they ever create a Nurse hologram for the Doctor? Seems like they made a fairly decent attempt at a backup doctor, so a nurse would've been so much easier. Anyway... Kes was the doctor's nurse for a while... and then Kes started venturing off in her telepathic explorations with Tuvok. If she was with Neelix, I could see her working in the mess hall cooking and serving with Neelix. Maybe even going on away missions with him.

But... the Neelix/Kes couple wasn't to be. I think that marginalized her. Jennifer Lien wasn't a stellar actress, but I think she was OK as Kes. It was all about what the writers could come up with. And I think they struggled a lot with this. 7o9 was the "series reboot" point. And, if she was to become the focal character, she'd really overshadow Kes, marginalizing Lien's character even further. So... it made sense to dispense with her. Kes and 7o9 couldn't co-exist.

I strongly disaagre here.

I see a lot of potential in Kes. A lot more than Kim and Neelix have. And I don't see a kes-neelix relationship as the only way to keep the character.

As a matter of fact, Kes really started to develope as character when she and Neelix started to drift away from each other. As a telepath and possible ship counselor, Kes could have had a lot more screen time and develope into an even more important character than she was.

I can take some examples of character development from two of my favorite series, which are NCIS and NCIS LA.

The most prominent example is Nell Jones in NCIS LA, a character which sometimes reminds me about Kes. During the latest seasons, she has developed from just a second computer technician to a skilled field agent. And mind you, she has a " babe competition" with the stunning characters Kensi and Eva. No talk about "no room" for anyone here.

We also have Tim McGee in NCIS who has developed from the series "whipping boy" and constant target of Tony's jokes to a top field agent. No problems with developing characters there.

There were some inications that Kes would become a more prominent character in episodes like "before And After" and "Scorpion #1" and there were more episodes where Kes played an important role in season 3 than there were for Kim and Neelix.

I don't think the writers had any problem with coming up with good Kes stories, they started to have problems when they were ordered to say that they couldn't come up with stories for the character. Otherwise it would be a total disgrace for those writers. If an amateur like me can come up with good Kes stories, then I expect even more from a staff of well-paid prfessional writers.

And of course could Kes and Seven have co-existed. I see no reason why they couldn't.

 

[fireproof78]

And of course could Kes and Seven have co-existed. I see no reason why they couldn't.

I agree with the majority of your post, but this statement I wanted to reiterate. It strikes me as odd that Kes couldn't be on screen with Seven of Nine. Why not? What traits are so similar that they couldn't possibly explore it in different ways.

The direction of Kes' character could be her moving from the student to more of a mentor with Seven, kind of like an older sister. Because, she's aging more quickly, which means there needs to be that mentorship stage.

 

[Lynx]

I agree with the majority of your post, but this statement I wanted to reiterate. It strikes me as odd that Kes couldn't be on screen with Seven of Nine. Why not? What traits are so similar that they couldn't possibly explore it in different ways.

The direction of Kes' character could be her moving from the student to more of a mentor with Seven, kind of like an older sister. Because, she's aging more quickly, which means there needs to be that mentorship stage.

We could live without that nine year lifespan crap but otherwise I agree. Kes could have been a good mentor to Seven.

 

[Jayson1]

I think Kes's strength comes from the fact that with a short lifespan you can really show a character arc where she goes from young and naive to old and wise.
PLus I think it would be intresting to know more about her race and culture. What was life like living like advanced mole people. Shouldn't everyday things we take for granted me seen as miracles to her such as different food,holodecks and space travel. For all I know the only aliens she ever saw before the show started was Kazon and Talaxian. You think she would really be into exploration.

Jason

 

[Gary7]

I strongly disaagre here.

I see a lot of potential in Kes. A lot more than Kim and Neelix have. And I don't see a kes-neelix relationship as the only way to keep the character.

As a matter of fact, Kes really started to develope as character when she and Neelix started to drift away from each other. As a telepath and possible ship counselor, Kes could have had a lot more screen time and develope into an even more important character than she was.

I can take some examples of character development from two of my favorite series, which are NCIS and NCIS LA.

The most prominent example is Nell Jones in NCIS LA, a character which sometimes reminds me about Kes. During the latest seasons, she has developed from just a second computer technician to a skilled field agent. And mind you, she has a " babe competition" with the stunning characters Kensi and Eva. No talk about "no room" for anyone here.

We also have Tim McGee in NCIS who has developed from the series "whipping boy" and constant target of Tony's jokes to a top field agent. No problems with developing characters there.

There were some inications that Kes would become a more prominent character in episodes like "before And After" and "Scorpion #1" and there were more episodes where Kes played an important role in season 3 than there were for Kim and Neelix.

I don't think the writers had any problem with coming up with good Kes stories, they started to have problems when they were ordered to say that they couldn't come up with stories for the character. Otherwise it would be a total disgrace for those writers. If an amateur like me can come up with good Kes stories, then I expect even more from a staff of well-paid prfessional writers.

And of course could Kes and Seven have co-existed. I see no reason why they couldn't.

Thank you for your very thoughtful reply, Lynx. You've convinced me. I didn't think of it while I was writing, but you're absolutely right -- ship's counselor was missing on Voyager. I remember the Doctor saying how he's trying to double that role as well. Kes certainly could have handled that role. With her guidance from Tuvok, the EMH, and Janeway, plus a kind of "Starfleet correspondence course" on counseling, she could have officially taken that role.

 

[Gary7]

I agree with the majority of your post, but this statement I wanted to reiterate. It strikes me as odd that Kes couldn't be on screen with Seven of Nine. Why not? What traits are so similar that they couldn't possibly explore it in different ways.

The direction of Kes' character could be her moving from the student to more of a mentor with Seven, kind of like an older sister. Because, she's aging more quickly, which means there needs to be that mentorship stage.

I think that based on the amount of time they have for each episode, it would've been a struggle to give sufficient dialog to Kes. Who knows, there may even be a formula that writers have to work with in terms of balancing screen time of the actors. Those who were paid more had to have a lot of it (Mulgrew) and those who had less time were paid less (Garrett). But who knows... maybe they could have worked something out. I've not read up on the behind-the-scenes for Voyager, but I get the feeling there were some politics going on that affected a lot of production decisions. And somehow Lien just didn't make the cut. I read that Mulgrew was devastated by her departure.

 

[Matthew Raymond]

I think the problem with Kes was that here likability was actually part of the problem. She basically started out as a doe-eyed innocent with no character flaws. Just about anything they did with her would make her less innocent and more of a jerk. By giving here a built-in expiration date, they made it harder to do things with her character with each passing season, because they'd have fewer years to complete here character evolution. They'd really have to have here character evolution carefully planned for all seven seasons from Day One.

It would have been cool to see here character undergo rapid evolution over the course of the series. Here's an idea of what could have happened to here character in just season one:

• Kes could have spent the first few episodes dealing with severe PTSD from her experience with the Kazon, with Neelix taking the brunt of her anxiety, but staying with her.
• Kes grows close to Neelix, in part due to his earlier emotional support, and they make plans to get married...
• ...But eventually Kes comes to realize in the weeks leading up to the wedding that their relationship is largely based on here "teenage crush" and that they don't have much in common. She ends the relationship just before the wedding, leaving Neelix emotionally wounded.
• The crew split down the middle on the breakup. Some people side with Neelix regarding the way Kes abruptly ended the relationship, while others see Neelix as a cradle robber who swooped in when Kes was emotionally vulnerable.
• At some point, Kes and Neelix must reluctantly work together to save the ship. Kes explains to Neelix that Ocampan relationships are much more intense and volatile because of their shorter live spans, and Neelix acknowledges that he used here short lifespan as an excuse to progress more quickly with their relationship when he knew he should have proceeded more cautiously. They eventually work out their differences and become friends.

Imagine for the second season, Kes is learning so much about medicine that here expertise begin to rival those of the Doctor. As she starts to take more and more responsibilities from him, he grows jealous and fearful that he will eventually go back to being used only in emergencies, spending long periods of time offline. By the end of Season Two, this could culminate in an angry confrontation between the two characters...

Thank you for your very thoughtful reply, Lynx. You've convinced me. I didn't think of it while I was writing, but you're absolutely right -- ship's counselor was missing on Voyager. I remember the Doctor saying how he's trying to double that role as well. Kes certainly could have handled that role. With her guidance from Tuvok, the EMH, and Janeway, plus a kind of "Starfleet correspondence course" on counseling, she could have officially taken that role.

...And this could be the resolution: Kes decides to shift here studies to psychology and becomes the ship's counselor, but in Season Three she has a rocky start when here first few sessions with some Maquis crewmembers don't go so well, but over the season she settles in and learns to have confidence in her own abilities, just in time for the episode "Scorpion", where she would be tasked with counseling Seven of Nine.

 

[Sophie74656]

And why do you think that this is the absolute truth?
A comment from the all too-friendly and nice Jennifer Lien, stated about 5 years after she was fired when all bad feelings about it probably had wore off and something she didn't really wanted to discuss anymore.
And then we have one of those many "official statements" which has changed from time to time. remenber that when people didn't believe the lie that "jennifer wanted to move", then they came up with another lie about "the writers weren't able to come up with stories about the character".

As for the comment about "her contract not being renewed, well not let us play semantics here. It was a downright firing!

Imagine the followin scenario: I'm building a house and I've hired a bunch of builders to build it up for me. I give them a three-monh contract.
After three months, I renew everyones contract except Joe's. Instead I hire body-builder Sven Hunkstrom who's not actually a better worker than Joe but looks good who will attract the local teenage girls in the area and also give my house-building some advertising in the local media and xtra money to mee from the advertising.

Of course, Joe who have been kicked out will take that as a downright firing and his co-workers too, especially since I've all of a sudden have made Sven the new boss of the building team.

Leagally you can call it what you like, actually it is a firing and not a nice one either. And I'm not referring to Joe now.

I understand that there are many reasons why you so strongly believe in the official statements and of course you are free to do so.

But I don't!
Not only because I'm a fan of the character Kes but also because of my experience with a business which is similar to the movie business I do smell a lot of crap in those official statements and how all this was handled from those in charge..

Believe all the conspiracy theories you want. It seems like you just REALLY REALLY want there to be some kind of scandal and for Jennifer Lien herself to be some kind of poor abused victim.

It makes much more sense that she willingly perused a profession that is known for being unstable and where jobs are known to be temporary.

I will believe the words that Jennifer Lien actually spoke. You believe your own theories if that's what makes you happy.

 

[Tracy Trek]

I don't think her character really had much room to be anything substantial. All essential roles on the ship were pretty much taken up!

I disagree, they needed to have a full time medical assistant/nurse. It never made sense that the only one after Kes' departure who had enough experience to assist the Doctor was Tom. Who was also chief helmsman. Just to be clear I'm not saying he didn't do a good job.

 

[Tracy Trek]

You think she would really be into exploration.

She was. There was an early episode (maybe The Cloud), where Neelix is complaining about Janeway putting the ship in danger. Kes says she wants to peek into every corner of the universe.

 

[unimatrix7]

Believe all the conspiracy theories you want. It seems like you just REALLY REALLY want there to be some kind of scandal and for Jennifer Lien herself to be some kind of poor abused victim.

It makes much more sense that she willingly perused a profession that is known for being unstable and where jobs are known to be temporary.

I will believe the words that Jennifer Lien actually spoke. You believe your own theories if that's what makes you happy.

It wouldn't be a Kes discussion without Lynx hijacking it with his/her ranting, raving, and accusations.

 

[fireproof78]

Believe all the conspiracy theories you want. It seems like you just REALLY REALLY want there to be some kind of scandal and for Jennifer Lien herself to be some kind of poor abused victim.

It makes much more sense that she willingly perused a profession that is known for being unstable and where jobs are known to be temporary.

I will believe the words that Jennifer Lien actually spoke. You believe your own theories if that's what makes you happy.

Because everything ever printed must be accurate?

Given the wide variety of BTS drama I have heard regarding VOY, from various sources, I think that skepticism is appropriate.

 

[Prax]

Then tell us. Why was Lien let go?

 

[Lynx]

It wouldn't be a Kes discussion without Lynx hijacking it with his/her ranting, raving, and accusations.

That was rude!

My favorite Star Trek Voyager favorite character is discussed and I'm not allowed to participate in it?

I thought this was a Star Trek forum and not some Soviet relic.

 

[Lynx]

Then tell us. Why was Lien let go?

Jennifer Lien was fired because those in charge wanted a "sexy babe" in the series to attract male teenage viewers. Since they were to greedy to pay for ten main characters, one had to go.

The irst choice was harry Kim. But when a silly inside poll among the staff of a glossy magazine showed him among "the 50 most handsome, those in charge changed their minds and axed Lien instead.

If those in charge had been honest people, they should have stated that from the start: "We kicked out Lien and deleted Kes because we wanted a "sexy babe" in the show to attract male teenage veiewers." Period.

That would have been more honest than coming up with a lot of explanations which changed from time to time and which no one believed.

 

[Lynx]

Believe all the conspiracy theories you want. It seems like you just REALLY REALLY want there to be some kind of scandal and for Jennifer Lien herself to be some kind of poor abused victim.

It makes much more sense that she willingly perused a profession that is known for being unstable and where jobs are known to be temporary.

I will believe the words that Jennifer Lien actually spoke. You believe your own theories if that's what makes you happy.

It was a scandal!
Why would Mulgrew and other people as well be so annoyed over what happened otherwise?

And Jennifer Lien didn't leave of her own free will. She was axed. I know that.

 

[unimatrix7]

That was rude!

My favorite Star Trek Voyager favorite character is discussed and I'm not allowed to participate in it?

I thought this was a Star Trek forum and not some Soviet relic.

You can participate all you like. And I can observe that for 16 years every Kes discussion is sidetracked by you telling everybody they're wrong, hate Kes, and that you know the truth about why she left the show and everybody else should get in line.

Every Kes thread goes the same way. Always has, always will. A discussion will sooner or later become Lynx vs whomever is foolish enough to challenge your Kes shibboleth.

I always find it odd though because three of the most significant facts and events in Kes' life - living 9 years, the events of The Gift, and Fury - are the things you hate the most.

 

[Refuge]

That was rude!

My favorite Star Trek Voyager favorite character is discussed and I'm not allowed to participate in it?

I thought this was a Star Trek forum and not some Soviet relic.

It's okay I think you have every right to share your thoughts

 

[Refuge]

You can participate all you like. And I can observe that for 16 years every Kes discussion is sidetracked by you telling everybody they're wrong, hate Kes, and that you know the truth about why she left the show and everybody else should get in line.

Every Kes thread goes the same way. Always has, always will. A discussion will sooner or later become Lynx vs whomever is foolish enough to challenge your Kes shibboleth.

I always find it odd though because three of the most significant facts and events in Kes' life - living 9 years, the events of The Gift, and Fury - are the things you hate the most.

Not every poster here has been around for 16 years.. maybe reading a fans view of Kes is all right by us..