Bryan Fuller: Diversity is key

[Awesome Possum]

Probably a side step here - but I can only think of Buck from the OA and OITNB's Sophia off the top of my head. I'm probably missing a few, but thats kind of odd that I know more trans people in person than I've seen on TV...

There's Nomi on Sense8 too. Laverne Cox has a character on another show too.

I suppose the Trek way is generally "nobody cares if people are gay, or black or trans or whatever else in the future" so they don't comment on it. Honestly it's a bit cowardly to approach things that way, I think a human trans character would be interesting. But I feel they are more likely to do something like have an alien who can change it's sex at will or something as a commentary on trans issues. And maybe it'd be done well, who knows?

I think having a gender fluid alien, while maybe providing some representation to gender fluid or maybe non-binary people, is really an easy excuse to keep ignoring the issue. It would be like having some wacky alien instead of Uhura or Sulu, while pretending they stood in for African-American or Asian people. It's really insulting to people who don't get representation. It's like tossing a tic tac to a starving person and acting like it's okay. If you've seen people like yourself on TV forever then you really can't understand this.

 

[Jayson1]

First of all, that sounds very difficult. I'm glad you didn't actually drive in to a lake.

Secondly, the difficulty with mental illness is that it is difficult to portray all the nuances that can be accompanied. There isn't a "cure" in the traditional medicinal sense of the word, and recovery can take more than an hour episode.

Finally, it's spelled "claustrophobia" though that wasn't the episode I was referring too.

I agree it can be hard to do over a single episode so I think they would need to make a regular or semi-regular character have a metal illness. As for showing the nuances I think the best way to do would be through thearpy sessions. Just having a character talk about their feelings can do a lot. One the most overlooked things that made "Sopranos" a great show was those type of scenes between Tony Soprano and Doctor Melphie.
Also I got to admit I liked seeing Troi on TNG when she was actually doing her job, especially in later seasons. I once remember reading one of the writers talk about how they felt they improved the character from were she was in season 1 was simply because they all saw shrinks themselves and had a better handle on how to write those kind of scenes.

What episode were you talking about, with regards to Garak?

Jason

 

[fireproof78]

I agree it can be hard to do over a single episode so I think they would need to make a regular or semi-regular character have a metal illness. As for showing the nuances I think the best way to do would be through thearpy sessions. Just having a character talk about their feelings can do a lot. One the most overlooked things that made "Sopranos" a great show was those type of scenes between Tony Soprano and Doctor Melphie.
Also I got to admit I liked seeing Troi on TNG when she was actually doing her job, especially in later seasons. I once remember reading one of the writers talk about how they felt they improved the character from were she was in season 1 was simply because they all saw shrinks themselves and had a better handle on how to write those kind of scenes.

What episode were you talking about, with regards to Garak?

Jason

This one

 

[Jayson1]

This one

That was the episode I was thinking about as well. I think Garak's mental illness was used mostly in just two episodes. That one and the two parter of course were he is inside the cramp space trying to fix the radio so they can beam aboard the Runabout.

Jason

 

[fireproof78]

That was the episode I was thinking about as well. I think Garak's mental illness was used mostly in just two episodes. That one and the two parter of course were he is inside the cramp space trying to fix the radio so they can beam aboard the Runabout.

Jason

It was, but one thing I liked about Afterimage was the fact that he was willing to explore his emotions with Ezri. It felt like a more counseling relationship.

 

[Jayson1]

It was, but one thing I liked about Afterimage was the fact that he was willing to explore his emotions with Ezri. It felt like a more counseling relationship.

I liked the episode but i'm not sure if it felt quite like a counseling session. I see a thearpist every week and they usually do a better job at keeping any personal issues they have from their client. Also Garak was having panic attacks and to me that is something that can be helped with medicine yet they never give him any to calm his nerves.

Jason

 

[CorporalCaptain]

24th-century counselors are more advanced.

 

[Tenacity]

It really would be great if they cast a trans actor and didn't even comment on it, TOS-style.

NBC and Roddenberry very much commented on TOS's racially diverse cast, if that's what you were referring to.

When CBS announced that Anthony Rapp would be playing Lieutenant Stamets, the announcement included the fact that the character would be gay.

Doug Jones and Michelle Yeoh's castings were (iirc) announced at the same time, but CBS didn't feel the need to tell us the sexuality of their characters.

If CBS casts a trans actor, rest assured they they will be "commenting" upon the casting from the highest roof top.

 

[Sakonna]

NBC and Roddenberry very much commented on TOS's racially diverse cast, if that's what you were referring to.

When CBS announced that Anthony Rapp would be playing Lieutenant Stamets, the announcement included the fact that the character would be gay.

Doug Jones and Michelle Yeoh's castings were (iirc) announced at the same time, but CBS didn't feel the need to tell us the sexuality of their characters.

If CBS casts a trans actor, rest assured they they will be "commenting" upon the casting from the highest roof top.

Oh, yes, what I meant was, commented on it within the show itself. There are no stories about Uhura or Sulu overcoming racism to attain their positions, they are simply there and treated as valuable members of the crew. Their matter-of-fact presence makes the point that future humanity has moved beyond contemporary prejudices. And then the actual stories about racism and bigotry are allegories with aliens.

I don't object to CBS announcing that Rapp's character would be gay, it is a meaningful development for the franchise. I was excited to know they were finally going there. I imagine (hope) that Stamets will not be encountering any homophobia from his crewmates, and his sexual orientation will similarly be treated as a non-issue within the show itself.

Laverne Cox has a character on another show too.

On "Doubt", right? Cancelled after two episodes! I was certain I was going to see some idiotic commentary to the effect of "this shows that network viewers aren't ready for trans characters", but fortunately the takeaway seems to have been that audiences aren't interested in shows that are A. terrible, or B. vehicles for Katherine Heigl.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Oh, yes, what I meant was, commented on it within the show itself. There are no stories about Uhura or Sulu overcoming racism to attain their positions, they are simply there and treated as valuable members of the crew. Their matter-of-fact presence makes the point that future humanity has moved beyond contemporary prejudices.

That point is backed up explicitly in dialog.

One of the few times Uhura's race was addressed was this exchange in Roddenberry's own "The Savage Curtain" [redaction mine]:

LINCOLN: What a charming n***ess. Oh, forgive me, my dear. I know in my time some used that term as a description of property.
UHURA: But why should I object to that term, sir? You see, in our century we've learned not to fear words.
KIRK: May I present our communications officer, Lieutenant Uhura.
LINCOLN: The foolishness of my century had me apologising where no offense was given.
KIRK: We've each learned to be delighted with what we are. The Vulcans learned that centuries before we did.

http://www.chakoteya.net/StarTrek/77.htm

Although it's not a great episode overall by any stretch, I've always liked what Uhura says in that passage, by the way.

(Full disclosure: I'm a white American male.)

 

[fireproof78]

I liked the episode but i'm not sure if it felt quite like a counseling session. I see a thearpist every week and they usually do a better job at keeping any personal issues they have from their client. Also Garak was having panic attacks and to me that is something that can be helped with medicine yet they never give him any to calm his nerves.

Jason

Self-disclosure in session is always risky for a therapist, there is no doubt about that. However, there are some clinical schools of thought that lean on that, allowing for more authenticity to be built up between the therapist and the client. Self-disclosure can be used to create "buy in" by a client who may be uncertain about the therapeutic process. I would certainly say that Garak's skepticism and resistance might warrant an unorthodox approach.

Although it's not a great episode overall by any stretch, I've always liked what Uhura says in that passage, by the way.

(Full disclosure: I'm a white American male.)

Then you have no room to talk.
(Also is a white American male, who is also straight and a Christian so about as offensive as you can get ).

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Then you have no room to talk.

Of course I can talk. What exactly did I say, anyway?

 

[Mudd]

To note, the previous several posts have all discussed men dressing so as to be attractive to women.

Its a little heteronormative.

Not all of us do.

Meh, I was just following mos6507's foolish remark where it lead.

Though I don't doubt that I'm "heteronormative" or something.

 

[jaime]

Yeah, Profit and Lace played right into the mentality @Awesome Possum is on about. What's the most hilarious, degrading, demeaning, embarrassing thing Quark could be? Not an arms dealer, a misogynist, a slave driver of an employer, a thief, a con artist, or anything else the show regularly portrays him as - a woman.

Profit and Lace gets misread far too often and easily. You are ignoring the position of Ferengi Women in the show, ignoring the general portrayal of women in Trek, and particularly Quarks specific narrative history as a character in relation to those things. (It's an inversion of his storyline with Pel for a start.) it's a lazy reading on a show that has Jadzia Dax and Kira Nerys in it.

 

[{ Emilia }]

I'm still waiting to find out if Discovery will be the sixth Trek show to feature a predominantly male cast. If that turns out to be the case, that'll sour my attitude towards it, I'll be honest there. I will still watch and possibly love it, though.

I'm not sure if diversity is "key". To me diversity is a minimum standard that should be completely natural.

Regarding a trans crew member, I'm actually wondering how this would work in a Trek future. Assuming that the trans person would want surgery, I'd expect Trek medical technology to be so good that it can easily be done. The only way we'd even know that a character is trans would be if they were transitioning during the course of the show, specifically talking about it or were shown in some flashback.

 

[TommyR01D]

Regarding a trans crew member, I'm actually wondering how this would work in a Trek future. Assuming that the trans person would want surgery, I'd expect Trek medical technology to be so good that it can easily be done. The only way we'd even know that a character is trans would be if they were transitioning during the course of the show, specifically talking about it or were shown in some flashback.

We know from Profit & Lace (Granted there are many fans who try very hard to forget that episode.) that a sex change, at least on a cosmetic level, is trivially easy. Having transsexual characters be visible as such on screen would raise more questions than it answered.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

We know from Profit & Lace (Granted there are many fans who try very hard to forget that episode.) that a sex change, at least on a cosmetic level, is trivially easy. Having transsexual characters be visible as such on screen would raise more questions than it answered.

Not at all.

We know that Kirk was allergic to Retinax V. A few words, at most, is all it takes to establish that any magical future medical treatment can't work on any given individual.

 

[{ Emilia }]

Not at all.

We know that Kirk was allergic to Retinax V. A few words, at most, is all it takes to establish that any magical future medical treatment can't work on any given individual.

That's splitting hairs. There's no reason to believe that surgery for trans people wouldn't be super-easy in the Trek future. It'd be rather weird for them to show one super-rare example of it not being easy.

@Awesome Possum How would you want a character's transgender identity to be shown in the show? I suppose they could show their actual transition but other than that? Where/how would it come up?

 

[RomulanCommander]

Yeah, but gender reassignment in the 23rd century shouldn't even need surgery. It should be as easy as stepping into a transporter.

Just having a character day one announcing they used to be another gender would be boring, and you couldn't do much with it. In fact we already had that in Jadzia. She lived multiple lifte times, sometimes as a male, other times as a female, but Dax was already a woman when we meet her. Then when Jadzia dies, we get Ezri. We didn't see a gender readjustment story.

I think the best way to handle a transgender character would be to have a cast member go through the stages of becoming trans gendered, in a series of sub plots throughout the series. The audience could see the character's journey throughout the series beginning with the character coming to the realization and accepting they want to change their gender, maybe living as the gender they want to become for a while, then post change, and dealing with issues afterwards. I think that would be interesting to see because people can see the whole journey, and seeing issues transgendered people go through would resonate.

 

[Awesome Possum]

I'm still waiting to find out if Discovery will be the sixth Trek show to feature a predominantly male cast. If that turns out to be the case, that'll sour my attitude towards it, I'll be honest there. I will still watch and possibly love it, though.

I'm not sure if diversity is "key". To me diversity is a minimum standard that should be completely natural.

Regarding a trans crew member, I'm actually wondering how this would work in a Trek future. Assuming that the trans person would want surgery, I'd expect Trek medical technology to be so good that it can easily be done. The only way we'd even know that a character is trans would be if they were transitioning during the course of the show, specifically talking about it or were shown in some flashback.

It can be done easily, just have a trans actor play a trans character. Maybe show them using a hypospray to take their hormone therapy. They don't tamper with genetics and I doubt they've figured out how to shrink and reshape the entire skeleton. Most likely you'd see better and more refined surgical techniques for those wanting surgeries, although there might actually be less of that because some of that pressure is due to living in an extremely transphobic society and wanting to blend in out of fear of persecution and abuse. So I can't see why there wouldn't be trans people in Star Trek and why they couldn't have trans actors play them. Not doing so is erasing them and coming up with excuses to justify it.