Bryan Fuller: Diversity is key

[Sakonna]

It depends which way you look at it, (and granted Sulu is an exception) but generally the episodes which feature non-straight characters end with prejudice being the winners. In those episodes which specifically try and explore ideas of homo/bi/asexuality and, or trans/intersex:

-In The Outcast, despite Soren's plea to be allowed to adhere to her biological gender, "What I need, and what all of those who are like me need, is your understanding. And your compassion. We have not injured you in any way. And yet we are scorned and attacked. And all because we are different", she is still forced to comply to societies norms/fears/prejudices.
-Rejoined treats the love between two female characters as forbidden and punishable by exile.
-Profit and Lace considers gender reassignment surgery, something many people have to wait years and jump through hoops to have, as immaterial as just changing clothes.
-The Emporer's New Cloak features a lesbian kiss between characters specifically labelled as morally corrupt.

Though prejudice wins in "The Outcast" and "Rejoined", I think it's crucial that these are not portrayed as good outcomes. They are defeats for our characters, and defeats for the values the show is espousing. "Rejoined" I think is actually devastating in it's conclusion (and "The Outcast" has some impact, I take issue with that episode in other ways).

You won't get any argument from me on "Profit & Lace" or sexuality in the MU, though. Highly problematic all around. "Crossover" manages to make it work, basically just on the strength of how fully realized Nana Visitor's performance is as the Intendant, and then it's a slow degeneration from there, getting increasingly offensive each time we go back...

 

[MadeIndescribable]

Though prejudice wins in "The Outcast" and "Rejoined", I think it's crucial that these are not portrayed as good outcomes. They are defeats for our characters, and defeats for the values the show is espousing.

True, and I totally get that they are representative of our own society (plus there's always the problem of episodic series depicting continuing relationships vs one-off love interests), but to me Star Trek has always been about hope and optimism, and that we are better than such things.

Especially in terms of depicting a future to those who so rarely see themselves reflected in pop culture in such a positive way.

 

[Spot261]

For me though trek is at it's best when it isn't too openly "preachy", when it asks questions rather than give answers.

I've only a limited time frame right now so I'll focus on "The Outcast" as it's the one freshest in my mind. Soren is forced to undergo the therapy yes but that doesn't (for me) read as an endorsement of her species conservative position, more a device to develop an emotional reaction and provoke questions. Victory for an ideological faction within a story need not equate to support for that ideology, rather a willingness to portray the world as unjust and display an acknowledgement that a moral high ground does not necessarily lead to "victory".

The episode could arguably have been more heavy handed as a pro LGBTQ vehicle, but I'm not sure the take home message was to support the J'naii position, on the contrary they are portrayed as inflexible and somewhat backwards with the viewers sympathy being squarely with Soren and Riker.

Had the cast somehow rescued Soren and changed the J'naii society I would actually argue this would in many ways weaken the message in that it would water down the difficulties and oppression faced by transgender people, making their suffering and society's bigotry trivial throwaway concerns that could be resolved in the course of a 40 minute episode instead of being pervasive, institutionalised and rigid. The episode was reflective of society's inertia in a way it could not have been had Picard made a speech and magically made their problems just.... go away.

 

[Awesome Possum]

The Outcast is almost a decent trans narrative since it's about a character identifies as a different gender than the one they were born. Although it's sort of a reversal since she lives in a strictly non-binary society. It's extremely problematic since they brainwash her into not having a gender anymore, something that's impossible to change, and it's treated as something they have no control over. But the whole aspect of her dealing with a society with oppressive gender norms is pretty spot on, even if they accidentally stumbled into it.

 

[MadeIndescribable]

For me though trek is at it's best when it isn't too openly "preachy", when it asks questions rather than give answers.

Yep, preachy can on occasion be self defeating, I think it's a big reason why Darmok is generally considered to be one of the best "Trek at it's best" episodes; championing communication and open mindedness without tackling a specific cause.

Had the cast somehow rescued Soren and changed the J'naii society I would actually argue this would in many ways weaken the message in that it would water down the difficulties and oppression faced by transgender people, making their suffering and society's bigotry trivial throwaway concerns that could be resolved in the course of a 40 minute episode instead of being pervasive, institutionalised and rigid. The episode was reflective of society's inertia in a way it could not have been had Picard made a speech and magically made their problems just.... go away.

Have to admit that's not something I'd thought of. I guess that's the problem with different people watching the same episode and seeing different things. Writers can't get the same message across to everyone...

 

[Tuskin38]

Rejoined treats the love between two female characters as forbidden and punishable by exile.

But that one had nothing to do with Gender though. It was the fact they were lovers in previous lives.

Maybe I just missed the point of your post.

 

[Vger23]

Shatner checked off that box long ago.

That's about as mean spirited as it gets. Bravo.

 

[MadeIndescribable]

But that one had nothing to do with Gender though. It was the fact they were lovers in previous lives.

Maybe I just missed the point of your post.

My point was about both sexuality and gender, and the way in which society punishes anything that deviates from the norm. Episodes such as Rejoined do try to examine them, but always do so by representing them as alien and forbidden/immoral.

 

[jaime]

It depends which way you look at it, (and granted Sulu is an exception) but generally the episodes which feature non-straight characters end with prejudice being the winners. In those episodes which specifically try and explore ideas of homo/bi/asexuality and, or trans/intersex:

-In The Outcast, despite Soren's plea to be allowed to adhere to her biological gender, "What I need, and what all of those who are like me need, is your understanding. And your compassion. We have not injured you in any way. And yet we are scorned and attacked. And all because we are different", she is still forced to comply to societies norms/fears/prejudices.
-Rejoined treats the love between two female characters as forbidden and punishable by exile.
-Profit and Lace considers gender reassignment surgery, something many people have to wait years and jump through hoops to have, as immaterial as just changing clothes.
-The Emporer's New Cloak features a lesbian kiss between characters specifically labelled as morally corrupt.

Plus in all of which, all participants of which who are depicting "otherness" are alien rather than human.

(PS, I haven't included Odan's female host because at least Crusher admits "Perhaps it is a Human failing ... Perhaps, someday, our ability to love won't be so limited.")

The Outcast- this is portrayed as a bad thing our heroes in the narrative disagree with strongly, but can't do anything about.
Rejoined- it is not homosexuality that is forbidden, it is the reassociation, and Ezri should have got more flak for Worf...except nobody really knew about it and it didn't turn into an ongoing thing. At no point did Starfleet characters or anyone comment on their gender...it was a cultural taboo specific to joined Trill.
Profit and Lace- your specific problem makes no sense, it's Trek. Bashir made a dude a robot brain, Crusher regrew a spine, McCoy fixed a kidney with a pill.
Emperors New Cloak- they were baddies and bisexual, not baddies because they were bisexual. The mirror universe is basically a more sensual, violent version of our own universe. I don't think it's as problematic as some make out, especially for the narcissist intendant. It is a bit clumsy mind you.
(Someone fix the JavaScript or whatever it is... this has taken all afternoon to post. Crashes safari...logs me out... only this site.)

 

[MadeIndescribable]

Rejoined- it is not homosexuality that is forbidden, it is the reassociation
Emperors New Cloak- they were baddies and bisexual, not baddies because they were bisexual.

Again, I understand these in terms of in-universe narrative, but my argument is that in terms of looking at their episodes in a real world context, both lesbian kisses are specifically represented as both alien, and either forbidden and/or morally corrupt.

I know this is often a byproduct of using a one-time sci-fi metaphor for the "issue" of diversity and its prejudices, but surely that's even more reason for having recurring character(s) who have a more diversive aspect to which attention isn't specifically drawn...

 

[jaime]

Again, I understand these in terms of in-universe narrative, but my argument is that in terms of looking at their episodes in a real world context, both lesbian kisses are specifically represented as both alien, and either forbidden and/or morally corrupt.

I know this is often a byproduct of using a one-time sci-fi metaphor for the "issue" of diversity and its prejudices, but surely that's even more reason for having recurring character(s) who have a more diversive aspect to which attention isn't specifically drawn...

In real world context you have the heroes saying 'isn't this silly and wrong, and people should love whoever they like' in the same episode. While I pretty much agree with your second paragraph. It can get silly and inadvertently prejudicial though. I mean the closest thing to a Londoner on the show was a criminal, and the easiest for me to identify with had almost nothing in common With me from a 'representational' point of view.

 

[MadeIndescribable]

In real world context you have the heroes saying 'isn't this silly and wrong, and people should love whoever they like' in the same episode.

But in each episode it's often the prejudice which ultimately wins. As mentioned before, one time metaphors tread a fine line which perhaps have no one right answer?

 

[Awesome Possum]

You know who wouldn't put up with that shit for a second? Kirk.

He'd wreck their entire society to end injustice, introduce miniskirts and have a laugh at the end.

 

[jaime]

But in each episode it's often the prejudice which ultimately wins. As mentioned before, one time metaphors tread a fine line which perhaps have no one right answer?

And it says 'look at these bad people winning, don't you think that's silly, maybe you should do something about it'.
And then we fought the dragons, and one day even a lizard will fear. Or something.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

That's splitting hairs. There's no reason to believe that surgery for trans people wouldn't be super-easy in the Trek future. It'd be rather weird for them to show one super-rare example of it not being easy.

Yeah, but I was taking issue with the "raise more questions than it answered" part. It wouldn't. There isn't anything stopping the writers from having a character who's transgender who hasn't yet transitioned, or even who can't transition, if that's where the story they want to tell takes them. There's a whole slew of reasons based on past precedent for how that could happen. I merely gave one example. Did I say that's what they would have to do? No. But fundamentally I was taking issue with the notion that transgender people would necessarily be invisible in the Star Trek universe, which is basically what @TommyR01D's post said.

 

[MadeIndescribable]

And it says 'look at these bad people winning, don't you think that's silly, maybe you should do something about it'.
And then we fought the dragons, and one day even a lizard will fear. Or something.

I'm not asking for all singing and dancing smiles all round, just personally I think there should have been some small slither of hope in there too.

 

[Tenacity]

In the lead up to Discovery, I don't think I've seen a single person express that concern about Stamets, because now we see that it's actually quite easy to establish a gay character in ways that are not distracting.

Thing is, if someone were to begin watching Discovery without the previous knowledge of press releases, would they at some point gain a understanding that Stamets was gay? Solely from what is going to be seen/heard in the show.

Are TPTB going to put Stamets in a situation, or include dialog, that informs the audience that the character is gay?

I think it would be similarly easy to have a trans character on Discovery, you don't have to do anything beyond just putting a trans actor in one of the roles.

But would a trans character necessarily have to be played by a trans actor? I'd say no.

Though prejudice wins in "The Outcast" and "Rejoined", I think it's crucial that these are not portrayed as good outcomes. They are defeats for our characters, and defeats for the values the show is espousing.

I'm a proponent of our heroes occasionally losing, a unbroken series of successes becomes ridiculous after a period of time.


One type of actual diversity is going to be "different than us," diverse can't just be the diversity that you agree to. The Discovery crew is (hopefully) going to run across people and cultures with institutions and concepts that disagree with their personal fixed set of ideals.

How should they handle these occurrences?

For me though trek is at it's best when it isn't too openly "preachy", when it asks questions rather than give answers.

Nice.

Soren is forced to undergo the therapy yes but that doesn't (for me) read as an endorsement of her species conservative position

Soren was a biological female who secretly identified with being female, and who was sexually attracted to biological males who identified with being male.

She lived in a society that officially require people to reject the concept of gender and to be sexually bi-sexual.

Where do you see "conservative position" there?

 

[MadeIndescribable]

But would a trans character necessarily have to be played by a trans actor? I'd say no.

But it's about diversity of cast as much as characters.

 

[Awesome Possum]

But would a trans character necessarily have to be played by a trans actor? I'd say no.

That's erasing trans people. Would you hire a white actor to play a black character?

 

[Sakonna]

Thing is, if someone were to begin watching Discovery without the previous knowledge of press releases, would they at some point gain a understanding that Stamets was gay? Solely from what is going to be seen/heard in the show.

Are TPTB going to put Stamets in a situation, or include dialog, that informs the audience that the character is gay?

I would assume so, yes. I'd be surprised and will be complaining about it if this is not the case.

But would a trans character necessarily have to be played by a trans actor? I'd say no.

I'd say absolutely yes. And I feel like the mainstream consensus has recently arrived at the same conclusion. I've also actually had to deal with it as a concrete issue, most of my working life has been in casting. I've had to cast a few trans roles, and I was always successful in finding transgender women to play them (by coincidence, it's only been female trans roles that have ever come up for me). The projects I was on for these parts were low budget and cast on an accelerated timetable, and I was terrified it just wouldn't be enough time or money to find the proper talent, and that the producers would eventually start wanting to see men in drag or ciswomen. Fortunately, they loved the trans performers I found and I didn't have to have that fight.

But the point is, whoever is casting Discovery has fantastic bait: a prestigious project from a famous franchise that will pay well. If they were to have a trans character for the show, there would be no excuse to not cast a trans actor.

I'm a proponent of our heroes occasionally losing, a unbroken series of successes becomes ridiculous after a period of time.

One type of actual diversity is going to be "different than us," diverse can't just be the diversity that you agree to. The Discovery crew is (hopefully) going to run across people and cultures with institutions and concepts that disagree with their personal fixed set of ideals.

How should they handle these occurrences?

Are these meant as arguments with what I wrote in my post? I would agree with all of this, and I feel it's consistent with what I've written previously. When they encounter cultures that challenge their values, I would want it to be dealt with in the same spirit as Trek has always done, which is defaulting to a position of respect, but struggling to find the proper response in situations that particularly challenge their most core beliefs.