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Bryan Fuller: Diversity is key

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So I can't see why there wouldn't be trans people in Star Trek and why they couldn't have trans actors play them.

I really hope you're not addressing me here. :confused:
I never claimed that we shouldn't have trans characters/actors in Trek. You know I support that so...?
I just said I wonder how and when it would come up during the show and asked for your opinion on the best kind of representation.
 
I really hope you're not addressing me here. :confused:
I never claimed that we shouldn't have trans characters/actors in Trek. You know I support that so...?
I just said I wonder how and when it would come up during the show and asked for your opinion on the best kind of representation.
I was addressing the general direction of the thread, sorry for any confusion. It could come up natural, have a crew member in their room and maybe show some photos on the wall of them with their family. The oldest one shows parents with a boy, the other shows character at graduation from the Academy as female.
 
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IMO if you want to show real progress then a Transgender character should be either a villian or a asshole. I've always felt the best way to present progress is to show people of color,gender who are different that they are capable of being terrible people just like everyone else.
Great progress is when you can have a Transgender character get to be like Denzel Washington in "Training Day" as oposed to being relegated to the PC nice guy/girl who is written so safely that they won't offend bigots or liberals who get offended at the first sight of something controversial.
Well Rounded characters are always going to be more intresting than characters who's only purpose is to be a role model.

Jason
 
Rejoined did really well for the time, and although it's a shame that's as far as Trek on TV has gone to date at least sightly redeems the franchise from ignoring the issue completely. My only real gripe with Rejoined is that the original romance between the previous Dax and Khan hosts that the new hosts 'remember' was a straight one. It would have been much stronger imho if the original relationship had also been homosexual, or left ambiguous. As the episode stands, the characters are engaged in a homosexual relationship only because their symbiotes remember the earlier, heterosexual, one.

It had a good message, but still shows how far there is to go. Star Trek (as a televisual consrtuct) has only ever shown anything other than heterosexuality as alien, and evil/forbidden.
 
IMO if you want to show real progress then a Transgender character should be either a villian or a asshole. I've always felt the best way to present progress is to show people of color,gender who are different that they are capable of being terrible people just like everyone else.
Great progress is when you can have a Transgender character get to be like Denzel Washington in "Training Day" as oposed to being relegated to the PC nice guy/girl who is written so safely that they won't offend bigots or liberals who get offended at the first sight of something controversial.
Well Rounded characters are always going to be more intresting than characters who's only purpose is to be a role model.

Jason
Given how villains are traditionally coded as being LGBTQ which feeds on society's pre-existing hatred of LGBTQ people, that's an awful idea and awfully cliched.
 
I'd love to see more diversity in terms of disability. In fifty years all we've had is one leg amputation (that I can remember), and that was only explored in terms of how it affected Nog's confidence.

I get that the 23rd Century has amazing medical advances, but surely many disabilities are like Picard's baldness. It's not a case of having a cure, it's a case of it not being an issue.
 
Geordie was blind, but was able to use the visor. The only character I recall using a wheelchair was Pike and that's arguably more a mobile life support system. It would be interesting to see a Stephen Hawking type character.
 
Geordie was blind, but was able to use the visor. The only character I recall using a wheelchair was Pike and that's arguably more a mobile life support system. It would be interesting to see a Stephen Hawking type character.
Totally forgot about Geordi being blind. But I guess that's an argument for them making actual disabilities (by which I mean having disabled actors with disabilites which aren't so simply negated) more visible?
 
Again, DS9 tried their best - in fact they did the same story twice, 'Julian tries to cure disabled woman he fancies' - both with similar messages about trying to make disabled people 'normal'. Like Rejoined, neither quite hit the mark, but they do deserve points for trying.
 
I'm not in the least bit satisfied.

No trans-gendered or gender-fluid cast member?
No physically challenged cast member?
No vietnam-era veteran cast member?
No cast members belonging to a radical terrorist organization?
No obese cast members?
No meth-addicted cast members?
No cast members who were previously sex workers?
No cast members who voted for Trump?

Until Star Trek finally puts its money where its mouth is with regard to fair and equal representation of all members of humanity, it's nothing but a typical Hollywood racist-fest wrapped up in weak, disguised handwaving while claiming to be progressive and modern. I'll boycott. Because canon, too...and CBS All Access making us pay.

Rage.
Little people?
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There's Nomi on Sense8 too. Laverne Cox has a character on another show too.

I think having a gender fluid alien, while maybe providing some representation to gender fluid or maybe non-binary people, is really an easy excuse to keep ignoring the issue. It would be like having some wacky alien instead of Uhura or Sulu, while pretending they stood in for African-American or Asian people. It's really insulting to people who don't get representation. It's like tossing a tic tac to a starving person and acting like it's okay. If you've seen people like yourself on TV forever then you really can't understand this.

Just to be clear my message was about what I think the show is most likely to do, not my own wishes on the matter. I'm all for adding a trans human character, that'd be cool. I just don't think they will judging by how we've seen Trek handle such matters in the past. They are too in love with the alien allegory thing I think. But this is a whole new show so anything can happen.
 
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I actually want a trans crew member. There's almost no positive trans representation in fiction in any form of media. Some people will probably think of this as a joke, but reminding an incredibly persecuted and oppressed minority that they have a place in the future would be extremely empowering.
I hear that! Seeing trans, Genderqueer/non-binary, etc. would be great!
 
Just to be clear my message was about what I think the show is most likely to do, not my own wishes on the matter. I'm all for adding a trans human character, that'd be cool. I just don't think they will judging by how we've seen Trek handle such matters in the past. They are too in love with the alien allegory thing I think. But this is a whole new show so anything can happen.
They generally use aliens for one-off characters for individual episodes. I want an actual reoccurring character on the level of Miles O'Brian or Barclay. Someone you'd get to see on a regular basis. A single episode to hang a morality tale on is pointless.
 
They generally use aliens for one-off characters for individual episodes. I want an actual reoccurring character on the level of Miles O'Brian or Barclay. Someone you'd get to see on a regular basis. A single episode to hang a morality tale on is pointless.
Some characters started as one offs that ended up recurring.
 
They generally use aliens for one-off characters for individual episodes. I want an actual reoccurring character on the level of Miles O'Brian or Barclay. Someone you'd get to see on a regular basis. A single episode to hang a morality tale on is pointless.

Plus in most cases, as much as the episode has the best of intentions, whether its down to the writers, producers, networks, whoever, the metaphor either gets lost, or doesn't go far enough (like Profit and Lace), and the subject is never touched on again to make the necessary corrections.
 
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Some of the arguments against having a trans person on the show echo what I heard in the 90's regarding why they shouldn't have a gay crewperson. "How would you even know when no one would have a reason to say it, we've probably seen a ton of gay characters and just didn't realize!" This logic only holds if your mindset (consciously or unconsciously) is that being gay is something where the default is to hide it, and thus ignores all the ways sexual orientation would come up casually in a world that has evolved beyond homophobia. In the lead up to Discovery, I don't think I've seen a single person express that concern about Stamets, because now we see that it's actually quite easy to establish a gay character in ways that are not distracting.

I think it would be similarly easy to have a trans character on Discovery, you don't have to do anything beyond just putting a trans actor in one of the roles. Most people will get it. Eventually, organic ways to reference the character's backstory and the fact that they're trans will present themselves.

I think having a gender fluid alien, while maybe providing some representation to gender fluid or maybe non-binary people, is really an easy excuse to keep ignoring the issue. It would be like having some wacky alien instead of Uhura or Sulu, while pretending they stood in for African-American or Asian people. It's really insulting to people who don't get representation. It's like tossing a tic tac to a starving person and acting like it's okay. If you've seen people like yourself on TV forever then you really can't understand this.

I've started thinking the ideal approach would be to do both, actually -- you have a trans actor in the cast as a human character, their presence is matter-of-fact and unremarkable, Uhura & Sulu style. Then you also eventually do a "Rejoined" style episode that lets you actually do a story about transphobia, in the classic Trek-alien-allegory style.

Profit and Lace gets misread far too often and easily. You are ignoring the position of Ferengi Women in the show, ignoring the general portrayal of women in Trek, and particularly Quarks specific narrative history as a character in relation to those things. (It's an inversion of his storyline with Pel for a start.) it's a lazy reading on a show that has Jadzia Dax and Kira Nerys in it.

Here are some messages from "Profit & Lace":

1. Threatening a woman's livelihood to coerce her into sex is OK -- she's ultimately going to like it
2. Attempted sexual assault can be hilarious!
3. Women! They just can't stop crying all the time, am I right?

I feel like I could go on. It's really not lazy to critique this as a sexist hour of television. DS9 got a lot right with their female characters and is not a sexist show generally (I actually quite like "Rules Of Acquisition"... the A story, at least), but that doesn't give them a pass. In much the same way that TNG was not generally a racist show, but "Code Of Honor" can still be a racist episode. The fact that "Profit & Lace" is nominally claiming to be about equal rights for Ferengi women is just a fig leaf.

IMO if you want to show real progress then a Transgender character should be either a villian or a asshole. I've always felt the best way to present progress is to show people of color,gender who are different that they are capable of being terrible people just like everyone else.
Great progress is when you can have a Transgender character get to be like Denzel Washington in "Training Day" as oposed to being relegated to the PC nice guy/girl who is written so safely that they won't offend bigots or liberals who get offended at the first sight of something controversial.
Well Rounded characters are always going to be more intresting than characters who's only purpose is to be a role model.

I take your point generally, but it requires a certain critical mass of trans characters to start with. When there are very few of them anywhere in the entertainment universe, you're not yet at the point where presenting them as villains can be touted as progress. Also, I think it's a false choice between villain/asshole and perfect saint -- there's a middle ground you want to hit. I actually think Laverne Cox's character on "Orange Is The New Black" is a perfect example of how to do a trans character properly... she is definitely a flawed person, she is not some PC paragon of morality, but she is no better or worse than anyone else in the cast. What's meaningful is portraying her as someone who is as fully human as anyone else.

Geordie was blind, but was able to use the visor. The only character I recall using a wheelchair was Pike and that's arguably more a mobile life support system. It would be interesting to see a Stephen Hawking type character.

There was also that reverse-aging admiral in "Too Short A Season." And Bashir's love interest in "Melora."
 
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It had a good message, but still shows how far there is to go. Star Trek (as a televisual consrtuct) has only ever shown anything other than heterosexuality as alien, and evil/forbidden.

Really?

I'd be more inclined to say the portrayals have been limited than judgemental. Dax and Lenara was a worthwhile step and the episode was rightly praised, albeit with the proviso it had been a long time coming and had little lasting impact after the 40 odd minutes of the show.

Likewise the "blink and you miss it" admission that Sulu is gay was lacking in it's prominence rather than intentions.

I'm open to any other examples I've missed, but I'd say trek has generally been more indifferent to portrayals of non straight characters than hostile. Of course this is limiting the argument to literal portrayals rather than any perceptions of allegory......
 
Really?

I'd be more inclined to say the portrayals have been limited than judgemental. Dax and Lenara was a worthwhile step and the episode was rightly praised, albeit with the proviso it had been a long time coming and had little lasting impact after the 40 odd minutes of the show.

Likewise the "blink and you miss it" admission that Sulu is gay was lacking in it's prominence rather than intentions.

I'm open to any other examples I've missed, but I'd say trek has generally been more indifferent to portrayals of non straight characters than hostile. Of course this is limiting the argument to literal portrayals rather than any perceptions of allegory......
It depends which way you look at it, (and granted Sulu is an exception) but generally the episodes which feature non-straight characters end with prejudice being the winners. In those episodes which specifically try and explore ideas of homo/bi/asexuality and, or trans/intersex:

-In The Outcast, despite Soren's plea to be allowed to adhere to her biological gender, "What I need, and what all of those who are like me need, is your understanding. And your compassion. We have not injured you in any way. And yet we are scorned and attacked. And all because we are different", she is still forced to comply to societies norms/fears/prejudices.
-Rejoined treats the love between two female characters as forbidden and punishable by exile.
-Profit and Lace considers gender reassignment surgery, something many people have to wait years and jump through hoops to have, as immaterial as just changing clothes.
-The Emporer's New Cloak features a lesbian kiss between characters specifically labelled as morally corrupt.

Plus in all of which, all participants of which who are depicting "otherness" are alien rather than human.

(PS, I haven't included Odan's female host because at least Crusher admits "Perhaps it is a Human failing ... Perhaps, someday, our ability to love won't be so limited.")
 
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