Litverse & Star Trek '09

[MadeIndescribable]

and rather firmly put a pin in the idea of Trek having one intended identity when Roddenberry got the boot. Twice.

Star Trek is the product of committee, in the best way. Many writers bringing in different 'intentions', and growing an identity over the decades

I think I somewhat lost your argument somewhere..

Yes Star Trek has evolved over the decades, as diffefent writer/producers/directors have put their own take on it depending on personal prefefence and as in relation to the film/tv landscape of the time. But I can't think of any who have not treated it as "a credible adult drama set in a plausible future" as @Christopher described it (other than TAS, which was Roddenberry's production), and each have also stuck to how they translate the core vision of a unified humanity on a mission of exploration.

 

[Trekkin]

But I can't think of any who have not treated it as "a credible adult drama set in a plausible future"

Would you call episodes like Tribbles (any of the Tribbles), or The Magnificent Ferangi 'dramas?' As for 'adult,' that's a bit of a nebulous concept to start with. Something that will mean different things to different people. For eg.

Person 1: Star Trek discusses the cycle of drug abuse. That's mature subject matter.

Person 2: They literally wrapped it in latex, and lectured that 'drugs are bad!' Sesame Street handled the subject with more nuance!​

And I ain't touching the 'plausible future' part with a ten foot pole. Not just because I'm not in the mood for the inevitable bickering over the political and economic stuff, but I don't have all day to nitpick the science. There's literally books full of that.

 

[Idran]

What does any of this have to do with the thread topic

 

[Christopher]

But I can't think of any who have not treated it as "a credible adult drama set in a plausible future" as @Christopher described it (other than TAS, which was Roddenberry's production)

On the contrary -- TAS was intended and overtly promoted as the first Saturday morning animated series for adult viewers. It did tone down the sex and violence so that it would be suitable for younger viewers, but otherwise it was approached exactly the same way as TOS; indeed, many of its episodes were originally conceived as TOS episodes. It frequently dealt with adult themes like death, war, suicide, planetary extinction, etc.

Of course, there are episodes of every Trek series that have fallen short of the credibility Roddenberry aspired to, but the point is that those are shortcomings in a Trek context, yet equivalently implausible things in Star Wars can't be characterized the same way, since it was never intended to be anything but a fantasy. The two franchises are not identical in their baseline approach, so they deserve to be assessed by their own distinct standards rather than treated as exactly equivalent.

 

[Trekkin]

What does any of this have to do with the thread topic

*Puts on nerd thesis glasses*

A Discussion in Five Nerd Rages: When considering the inclusion of fanciful elements in Trek Lit, should authors adher to Auteur Theory and the Pontifications of Our Hallowed Giver of The Word? Or revel in the franchise long history of Successive Art Works embracing Death of the Author?

Originalideadonotsteal.

 

[Idran]

*Puts on nerd thesis glasses*

A Discussion in Five Nerd Rages: When considering the inclusion of fanciful elements in Trek Lit, should authors adher to Auteur Theory and the Pontifications of Our Hallowed Giver of The Word? Or revel in the franchise long history of Successive Art Works embracing Death of the Author?

Originalideadonotsteal.

Okay that's pretty good, I'll give you that.

(Though to be pedantic (which I imagine everyone involved in this conversation wouldn't mind at all) the thread topic's specifically the Litverse not being allowed to reference the Abrams movies.)

 

[Trekkin]

I weighed in on that in the threads Prime-verse counterpart.

And probably it's Mirror-verse one. We're a persistent lot.

 

[Tuskin38]

The only way I have been able to rationalize it is that there is a MASSIVE amount of untold story that would need to be fleshed out in a few novels or comics stories. (Whatever the future license agreements are).

In the STO universe/timeline, it was destroyed with Protomatter injected directly into the core, the shockwave fed on the nearby planets that had large quantities of Decalithium which some how caused it to travel faster.

 

[SolarisOne]

In the STO universe/timeline, it was destroyed with Protomatter injected directly into the core, the shockwave fed on the nearby planets that had large quantities of Decalithium which some how caused it to travel faster.

At least STO tried to explain it. I remember sitting in the theater, going "whaaaaaa...?"

 

[Trekkin]

Pity the fools who tried to boggle out The Nexus. Brains would have been dripping from facial orfices, and the technobabble actually made it worse.

Character: The Nexus does this!
*Nexus does something completely different from that.*
Character: It also does that. For totally not Plot-induced reasons. Er...'joy'?

Sometimes less is more. How does the Genesis torpedo build an entire planet from scratch? Who cares, enjoy your heartbreak.

 

[E-DUB]

Hela wrotew: "

"Sometimes less is more. How does the Genesis torpedo build an entire planet from scratch? Who cares, enjoy your heartbreak."

Self-replicating nanotech. Well, that or magic.

 

[MadeIndescribable]

How does the Genesis torpedo build an entire planet from scratch?

I always thought it was the planetoid that Regula I was orbiting?

 

[Trekkin]

I always thought it was the planetoid that Regula I was orbiting?

Can't have been. We see the Mutara Nebula which is nothing like a nebula condensing into the planet. We never see evidence for or against Regula (plus Regula 1 and it's sun) being caught up in the effect, but it definitely wasn't just terraformed.

So then the question becomes: why did Genesis only terraform the Genesis cave, and not try to rip it apart for planet building-blocks?

Told you. Focus on the Spock-death feels.

 

[TheAlmanac]

Sometimes less is more. How does the Genesis torpedo build an entire planet from scratch? Who cares, enjoy your heartbreak.

This is generally my approach...I don't really need Star Trek to make its underlying elements conform to our present-day understanding of science in order to enjoy it.

I knew the (scant) description of the supernova didn't make much scientific sense when the first Kelvin Timeline movie came out, and I figured that eventually a tie-in could/would/should offer some sort of explanation for its effects--but it's been eight years, and the continuing lack of said explanation hasn't gotten in the way for me when I rewatch it.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

It still stretches credibility to the scope of the damage radius, but I'll get behind it as to how it travelled FTL.

Depends on what you mean by "damage radius." A supernova in our stellar neighborhood (ie., within a 1,000 light-years) could sterilize the Earth when the radiation front hit. The Hobus supernova may have consumed the Romulus/Remus solar system, but it will have radiation effects far beyond the Romulan Star Empire, effects that in a few centuries could render the Klingon Empire and the Federation uninhabitable.

 

[Trekkin]

Poor Kronos/Q'onos. The universe loves to bombard it with plot-radiation.

 

[Nyotarules]

Still, I would've preferred something "cool" that at least made some semblance of sense.

Entertainment comes before real life sense and in universe sense; (how did they get from Earth to Vulcan on the SAME DAY, do they travel at Warp 30, how long did it take Nero to destroy the Vulcan fleet and the Starfleet ships with a mining vessel, how does a Romulan miner purchase Borg tech and why would he need it in the first place? LT Kirk to Captain Kirk...please.

 

[Christopher]

Entertainment comes before real life sense and in universe sense;

That's just it, though -- it doesn't have to be a choice between the two. It's possible to have both entertainment value and good science, as proven by the success of films like The Martian and Arrival (and Interstellar, mostly).

I mean, Star Trek was one of the first SFTV series whose creators made an effort to consult with scientists and engineers to get the science at least partially right; the only previous ones had been a couple of kids' shows in the '50s. It's because of that research that the Enterprise wasn't just another flying saucer or cigar-shaped rocketship like essentially every film/TV spaceship preceding it. It's because of that research that the Enterprise has warp drive instead of just rocketing between the stars in total ignorance of the speed of light or interstellar distances, and that it's powered by matter/antimatter reaction instead of some imaginary fuel source. It's the reason the ship has a deflector dish and doesn't have flames shooting out the back. So don't underestimate the importance of scientific literacy to Star Trek. It wouldn't be the show we know if Roddenberry had been as lazy and careless about science as most other SFTV producers.

Being a good creator is not about putting effort into only one part of a creation and being lazy and sloppy with the rest. It's about putting your best possible effort into every aspect of the work, even the details the audience will hardly notice. Because somebody in the audience will notice, and will be distracted or annoyed if it doesn't work, even if most others overlook it. And because taking maximum care with the work, not being lazy and shrugging anything off as unimportant, will make the overall work as good as it can be.

 

[Markonian]

Depends on what you mean by "damage radius." A supernova in our stellar neighborhood (ie., within a 1,000 light-years) could sterilize the Earth when the radiation front hit. The Hobus supernova may have consumed the Romulus/Remus solar system, but it will have radiation effects far beyond the Romulan Star Empire, effects that in a few centuries could render the Klingon Empire and the Federation uninhabitable.

Makes me think of the ENT episode "Cold War". When I saw it the first time, I heard this dialog happening between Tucker and "Daniels" in engineering, but never found it on a rewatch:

T: <tinkers and poses question>
D: I'm from Illinois. Not the one you know. <significant look>
T: Good to know good ol' Earth still exists in the future.
D: That depends on how you define 'Earth'.
T: <flabbergasted>

 

[Nyotarules]

Makes me think of the ENT episode "Cold War". When I saw it the first time, I heard this dialog happening between Tucker and "Daniels" in engineering, but never found it on a rewatch:

T: <tinkers and poses question>
D: I'm from Illinois. Not the one you know. <significant look>
T: Good to know good ol' Earth still exists in the future.
D: That depends on how you define 'Earth'.
T: <flabbergasted>

Maybe Earth in the future is the HQ of the Alpha quadrant or something, 50% human, 50% everybody else