How many people before it becomes wrong?, Star Trek Insurrection

[Timo]

I think it should be considered that even if standard Federation law would consider relocating the Baku illegal, it's brought up repeatedly that the Federation is currently at war...

Except it isn't. No mention of an ongoing war is made in the movie, and frequent mention is made of events that could only take place after the war is over (diplomacy with the Dominion, the E-E and her heroes engaged in ops having nothing to do with fighting).

it's quite possible that their decision regarding the Baku fell under "if we survive the war, then we'll feel bad about what we did".

Might still apply even if the fighting is over, too.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[DonIago]

^^Given that the Federation is somewhat responsible for the particles being collected in the first place, isn't that sort of like saying that you're a hero because you pulled someone out of the path of a fast approaching truck that you set in motion to begin with?

 

[DonIago]

Except it isn't. No mention of an ongoing war is made in the movie, and frequent mention is made of events that could only take place after the war is over (diplomacy with the Dominion, the E-E and her heroes engaged in ops having nothing to do with fighting).

Timo Saloniemi

That's your novel interpretation of when you believe the film occurs. Heck, the first sentence of the Insurrection article at MA states "As the Dominion War ravages the Alpha Quadrant..."

 

[Nyotarules]

Oh so the Federation operated a Manifest destiny, imperial policy, whatever place we claim as ours is ours regardless of who is living there? Never learned lessons from human history did it? (Which was Picard's point) I can understand why some of us are defending this fictional theft of a fictional Baku planet (who never asked to join the Federation) cos it happened for real in our own history.
The planet was said to be in Federation space, the movie never stated its residents ever claimed to be a Federation planet, so if that still gives the Feds the right to steal their planet and their resources then its a shame the Dominion never bombed the Federation to kingdom come. They would have deserved it after their hundreds of years of public moral posturing.
The Baku arrived in Earth's 21st century, way before a Federation existed, the Feds had as much rights as an amoeba to the planet.

 

[Nyotarules]

Perhaps the 21st century Vulcans should have transported humans from Earth since humans were in their galactic sphere of influence (only 16ly away) and they had much greater need for the water and diverse resources compared to desert planet Vulcan. After all humans were warlike, primitive peoples, bombing each other to bits.
'Needs of the many' and all that....

 

[DonIago]

Feeling a bit hyperbolic?

It wouldn't be the first time a generally benign government did horrible things during a devastating war.

 

[Timo]

Why try and pretend the Feds didn't own the place when the movie clearly establishes the fact? I own my place. I didn't build it, but I legally bought it, and a squatter trying to move in because he's older than me or attempted squatting back when I was but a kid is no less a criminal for it.

If you want to go all John Lennon on the issue of possessions, feel welcome. But you will have to write an all-new movie on that very different premise.

That's your novel interpretation of when you believe the film occurs. Heck, the first sentence of the Insurrection article at MA states "As the Dominion War ravages the Alpha Quadrant..."

So it's time to correct the article, is all. The movie has nothing about wars or ravaging. Instead, our heroes prepare to spend months on an archaeological dig, tying down their mighty starship to that mudracking operation, too. What are they, cowards the whole lot? Traitors to the Federation cause? Agents of the Dominion? Supposedly not.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Nyotarules]

Empty planet, Baku comes along and moves in, 300 years later Feds comes alone and claims ownership and expects Baku to move. And some folks see absolutely nothing wrong with this? No wonder the Klingons believed an alliance with the Feds was a great idea, they are both militaristic bullies.

 

[Lance]

It wouldn't be the first time a generally benign government did horrible things during a devastating war.

Which, of course, doesn't necessarily make it right. Being generally benign doesn't build up 'karma credits' that can be traded off simply because, as one wise Vulcan once said, the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.

For my money, the bigger crime isn't that the Federation are moving the Baku on. That part could be negotiated with them, I'm sure, if the Feds had simply taken the time to learn a little more about them instead of simply assuming they were the native population of the planet and assuming that they're the primitive village dwellers they appear. A pox on the Federation for not learning more about them. But no, the true crime is that they've sided with the reprehensible Sona to do it.

 

[Nebusj]

That's your novel interpretation of when you believe the film occurs. Heck, the first sentence of the Insurrection article at MA states "As the Dominion War ravages the Alpha Quadrant..."

But Memory Alpha articles are hardly part of the continuity.

What star date is it at the start of Insurrection? At the end? How does that compare to the cessation of the Dominion War?

 

[Lance]

It's meant to take place sometime either during or after the sixth season of DS9.

But the line of dialogue which firmly established this (a reference to Jadzia's death, IIRC) was cut from the final movie. So the version on screen is much less concrete.

 

[DonIago]

Which, of course, doesn't necessarily make it right. Being generally benign doesn't build up 'karma credits' that can be traded off simply because, as one wise Vulcan once said, the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.

For my money, the bigger crime isn't that the Federation are moving the Baku on. That part could be negotiated with them, I'm sure, if the Feds had simply taken the time to learn a little more about them instead of simply assuming they were the native population of the planet and assuming that they're the primitive village dwellers they appear. A pox on the Federation for not learning more about them. But no, the true crime is that they've sided with the reprehensible Sona to do it.

I don't think I've ever argued that the Federation relocating the Baku would necessarily be right, only that 600 people standing in the way of alleviating the suffering of many, many more doesn't exactly seem right either.

The Feds didn't assume the Baku were native to the planet...in fact, Dougherty specifically states that he knows the Baku aren't native to the planet, which is why the PD doesn't apply in his eyes. They sided with the Son'a because the Son'a were the people with the technology to harvest the rings.

The only pertinent pieces of data the Feds don't seem to have is that a) at least some of the Son'a would rather see the Baku dead than relocated (but there's no clear evidence that that would have come to pass if the holoship plan had worked), and b) that the Son'a and Baku are related. However, as I discussed elsethread, point B would just seem to make a case that the Son'a-Baku situation is an internal matter that the Feds should possibly be keeping their noses out of altogether.

 

[DonIago]

As far as when the movie is supposed to take place, based on onscreen evidence:

"RIKER: The diplomatic corps is busy with Dominion negotiations."

We have no evidence either way as to whether the Feds were negotiating with the Dominion during the war itself, but there's no reason to assume they weren't trying, even if it was just a stalling tactic. If the war had ended at this point, then given that Dominion forces had returned to the GQ, what sort of negotiation would there be? Maybe for the process of their withdrawal? But as far as their surrender, the terms seemed pretty clear-cut.

As far as the E not being involved in war operations, we all know that that's a BtS decision, but it's also reasonable to assume that not every Starfleet ship was fighting the Dominion at all times, and IIRC Picard himself seems frustrated that the E is on the missions it's on when there's better things to be doing.

 

[Tenacity]

at least some of the Son'a would rather see the Baku dead than relocated

I disagree, the Sona seem to be going out of their way to keep the Baku alive, that only changes at the very end of the story when the overall plan to collect the particles looked like it might be delayed.

My impression is that the Sona as a group were coming to the ends of their live span, available technology could not extend it anymore. A significant delay would have meant their deaths.

The Sona's willingness to kill the Baku at the end had nothing to do with wanting the Baku dead, and everything to do with their growing desperation with acquiring the concentrated life saving particles

 

[DonIago]

Well, I think Ru'afo was pretty amenable to killing the Baku, but it is unclear whether he was hoping for that outcome from the outset, or how many others may have felt the same way. Ironically, I think Our Heroes' intransigence may have been what pushed him in that direction. "Screw it, just kill them and let's get on with this."

In reading the MA article, apparently TPTB at some point had the notion that the Son'a were no longer capable of reproducing, another issue that the rings were intended to help with, but it obviously and perhaps unfortunately never made it to screen.

I think it's a shame that TPTB took the easy route and made the Son'a essentially as unlikeable as possible, versus presenting them as a more sympathetic race.

 

[urbandefault]

Don't mind me, I'm just reading along. You know, to see if any new arguments have come up since the last 20 or so times this horse has been beaten.

 

[Tenacity]

^ There are new fans entering this site on a regular basis, and they can enjoy expressing their viewpoint on this subject, and of course others.

One of the reasons I like Insurrection is that exactly who is right or wrong in the story isn't obvious, debatably no one is completely in the right.. While I would advocate transporting the particles to many planets to help as many people as possible, I recognize that this is a imperfect course of action.

The benefits are larger than the damages, but there will be damage.

Empty planet, Baku comes along and moves in, 300 years later Feds comes alone and claims ownership and expects Baku to move. And some folks see absolutely nothing wrong with this?

All come down to why the Federation wanted the particles, for the benefit of many, as opposed to just a few.

If the particles could have been collected without effecting the planet's environment, the Baku would likely have been left alone.

 

[jaime]

^ There are new fans entering this site on a regular basis, and they can enjoy expressing their viewpoint on this subject, and of course others.

One of the reasons I like Insurrection is that exactly who is right or wrong in the story isn't obvious, debatably no one is completely in the right.. While I would advocate transporting the particles to many planets to help as many people as possible, I recognize that this is a imperfect course of action.

The benefits are larger than the damages, but there will be damage.
All come down to why the Federation wanted the particles, for the benefit of many, as opposed to just a few.

If the particles could have been collected without effecting the planet's environment, the Baku would likely have been left alone.

It's really obvious who is right. Picard. It's a mad Admiral story. And to you earlier point about trucks, you would also have to be intentionally driving the truck at the person.

 

[Tenacity]

It's really obvious who is right. Picard.

This time Picard is seriously in the wrong.

It's a mad Admiral story.

No, the admiral was the agent of the Federation Council, and I think it's pretty obvious he was never in full control of the situation.

And to you earlier point about trucks, you would also have to be intentionally driving the truck at the person.

Sure it could be my truck, but the person could simply be in the path of the truck when I moved them. It wouldn't have to be they being deliberately "targeted."

The Federation was moving the Baku so as they wouldn't be harmed by the process of collecting the particles. The Federation wasn't moving them just to move them.

Leaving them where they were wouldn't have interfered with the collection, but the Federation wanted the Baku to survive the collection process.

 

[jaime]

This time Picard is seriously in the wrong.No, the admiral was the agent of the Federation Council, and I think it's pretty obvious he was never in full control of the situation.Sure it could be my truck, but the person could simply be in the path of the truck when I moved them. It wouldn't have to be they being deliberately "targeted."

The Federation was moving the Baku so as they wouldn't be harmed by the process of collecting the particles. The Federation wasn't moving them just to move them.

Leaving them where they were wouldn't have interfered with the collection, but the Federation wanted the Baku to survive the collection process.

Sorry for the brevity of my previous post...typing bugs still happening on here for some reason.
Basically...Picard is right because he is the hero of the TNG films, as well as any narrative reasons. There's no grey area. Our crew are the goodies, as it were, Trek doesn't really do grey areas. It's therefore basically the traditional mad Admiral story.

Your truck analogy only works if you are driving the truck. The Federation are not moving the Baku out of kindness from a natural disaster, they are the ones responsible for the threat.