How many people before it becomes wrong?, Star Trek Insurrection

[Nyotarules]

It's meant to take place sometime either during or after the sixth season of DS9.

But the line of dialogue which firmly established this (a reference to Jadzia's death, IIRC) was cut from the final movie. So the version on screen is much less concrete.

Not that it is canon but Star trek timeline wiki states 2375 either just after the end of the war but before treaty negotiations since
1. Worf is on the ship
2. There is a line about Fed diplomats being involved with Dominion negotiations
3. And the Feds are doing a deal with the Son'a who were Dominion allies during the war.

 

[Tenacity]

2. There is a line about Fed diplomats being involved with Dominion negotiations

Imperial Japan surrendered in September of 1945, but the treaty of San Fransisco (48 nations) wasn't signed until September of 1951, and it didn't come into effect until April of 1952.

Sometime it takes more than a unconditional surrender to formally end a war.

 

[DonIago]

OTOH, it's just as possible the Feds were trying to negotiate with the Dominion prior to the end of the war.

 

[Ithekro]

There are a number of lulls in the war where there were negotiations between the Federation Alliance and the Dominion. The Jack Pack were involved in at least one of these negotiations as the Federation attempted to find a way out of the war by negotiating a new stable border with the Dominion. There was also the seemingly long stand off after the initial Federation invasion of Cardassian Space. The Siege of AR-558 was around the time of the stalemate. The lull ended when the Dominion managed to get the Breen into the war on their side. There is a sizable gap in war content after the "Siege of AR-558", and Worf is missing for basically two episode that span, which is also around the time the film came out. The Breen don't enter into the picture for another five or so episodes.

 

[captainkirk]

Something that must be considered is that if the events of the movie never happened and the So'na simply tried to annex the planet which is in Federation space, Starfleet would have responded with force. This would certainly have resulted in many casualties on both sides, and how many of those lives must be lost before it becomes wrong? Look at it from the Federation's point of view: start another armed conflict while fighting a massive war, or make a deal with the devil and find a non-lethal solution that will help billions in the long run.

 

[DonIago]

And 600 people is less than the standard complement of the E-D.

What I think is worse is that given the way the movie ends, the Feds are still left defending the planet until the end of time, basically.

Unless the Baku have some way of defending themselves (they did exile the Son'a originally after all...) that they just never bothered to bring up during the course of the film.

 

[jaime]

And 600 people is less than the standard complement of the E-D.

What I think is worse is that given the way the movie ends, the Feds are still left defending the planet until the end of time, basically.

Unless the Baku have some way of defending themselves (they did exile the Son'a originally after all...) that they just never bothered to bring up during the course of the film.

The end of the film sees peace between Son'Na and Baku, helped by Picard and following the death of Ruafo. There's probably a spa.

 

[DonIago]

Just because the Son'a aren't interested anymore doesn't mean another hostile power won't take an interest. Secrets leak.

 

[Tenacity]

The end of the film sees peace between Son'Na and Baku, helped by Picard and following the death of Ruafo. There's probably a spa.

More likely the review spoken of at the end of Insurrection will be like the review in Journey's End. After a three day review the Federation Council will reaffirm their original decision.

Baku are going to get moved, and the particles will be collected.

Thay way there can be spas on hundreds of planets (and not just one).

I believe the Baku will get a allotment of the particles too, where-ever they get settled..

 

[DonIago]

I do find great amusement in the notion of this being the outcome.

 

[Timo]

We don't know for sure whether the particles can be collected. Rua'fo just wanted the Ba'ku to suffer. We didn't see him enjoy or even try to enjoy the benefits of the planet; he went for the standard shipboard plastic surgery instead. And that wasn't out of ascetism (he accused Dougherty of it) or need for secrecy (Dougherty already knew).

Perhaps the Collector was just a weapon of mass destruction?

The interesting thing here is that after this movie, we get another one, and then some VOY stuff and the ST:B references - and none of that indicates that people would enjoy access to the Fountain of Youth. This despite at least the UFP Council knowing all about the Fountain.

The implication might be that something went horribly wrong,a and the Fountain has now dried up or been taken over by one of the bigger players who don't let mere mortals drink.

The less probable implication could be that there's great secrecy over the issue as of the 2370s and 2380s still. But could it really be made to work? And does it suggest that the elite enjoys exclusive access, or that there's a cool-off period while the spa system is being prepared?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Tenacity]

The interesting thing here is that after this movie, we get another one, and then some VOY stuff and the ST:B references - and none of that indicates that people would enjoy access to the Fountain of Youth. This despite at least the UFP Council knowing all about the Fountain.

Didn't Dougherty tell Picard the technology using the particles would have to be developed?

 

[DonIago]

I think it's also relevant to consider whether we really think the Feds would engage in such a potentially controversial project if they didn't have some reason to believe it would work. Now, maybe all they actually had was Son'a assurances, but I think it's fair to say we typically see the Feds engage in a higher degree of due diligence than that.

 

[Timo]

Did he? He said that the Son'a had already developed the tech to collect the particles, and that the UFP could not duplicate it or find alternatives. AFAIK, he didn't mention a further step that the Son'a or the Feds would have failed to make so far.

Edit: Ninja'ed again. And yes, I'd think the Council would have needed assurances that the project could be taken to a satisfactory conclusion. I mean, there wasn't massive hurry, Rua'fo didn't claim he would be dying two weeks from now. Failing to provide a plausible demonstration of the benefits would have looked suspicious.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[DonIago]

Well, I'm glad we at least agree that the Feds went into this with (most likely) good reason to believe that the project would have succeeded, as opposed to less than good reason.

 

[Jeyl]

I mean, there wasn't massive hurry, Rua'fo didn't claim he would be dying two weeks from now. Failing to provide a plausible demonstration of the benefits would have looked suspicious.

Regarding why they cannot simply have the Sona live on the planet.

DOUGHERTY: It would take ten years of normal exposure to begin to reverse their condition. Some of them won't survive that long.

Or how about this scene?

SO'NA DOCTOR: Your body is producing far too many toxins. We've reached the limit of genetic manipulation.
RU'AFO: I won't need any more genetic manipulation if our Federation friends will allow us to complete this mission.

Sounds like a need to hurry to me.

 

[DonIago]

It would be ironic if the "some of them" who didn't have that long was roughly 600...

 

[Timo]

This dialogue doesn't really establish the degree of "hurry", beyond it being "less than ten years". Supposedly, the collector, if working as promised, would solve the problems very quickly, so applying collected salvation at the nine years, eleven months mark would still work. So if the Council asked for assurances, refusal to provide any would still appear suspicious. "We will have a demonstration ready in two months" should be followed by "Okay, we will give you the mandate in two months then"; "We will have a demonstration ready in two years" should be followed by "So you don't have any idea of whether this is going to actually work? Please come back in a few decades", along with sighs of relief that Rua'fo wouldn't be among those returning.

It would be ironic if the "some of them" who didn't have that long was roughly 600...

This wouldn't work too well if we assume the Son'a are a subset of the Ba'ku. After all, the Son'a supposedly can't breed, yet were "rebellious youngsters" when they left and supposedly very soon thereafter began their own disastrous experiments at longevity so that many of them still survive after those centuries. How much breeding could have taken place before the experiments? And if the Son'a were a majority originally, why did they have to leave while the minority of 600 stayed?

If we instead assume the Son'a are the originating culture from which the Ba'ku originally fled, and the "rebellious youngsters" just returned home where everybody subsequently engaged in the longevity experiments and thus lost fertility, we could indeed say that some 600 were facing the horrible fate of not living forever while millions or billions of Son'a could simply go live on the planet for a while and thus become fertile again and possibly also immortal. But giving the Son'a a home base of billions of loyal natives (never mind the slaves who could be more a threat than an asset) plus the evident tech advantage would make it less plausible that they'd need the UFP for anything at all.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Kirk Prime]

That's a great poll, and a great question, and honestly, assuming the resource was legit, and the entire galaxy could benefit with near immortality? There is no limit. That's too valuable a resource. We aren't talking something that is a luxury--we are talking preventing deaths.

 

[jaime]

This dialogue doesn't really establish the degree of "hurry", beyond it being "less than ten years". Supposedly, the collector, if working as promised, would solve the problems very quickly, so applying collected salvation at the nine years, eleven months mark would still work. So if the Council asked for assurances, refusal to provide any would still appear suspicious. "We will have a demonstration ready in two months" should be followed by "Okay, we will give you the mandate in two months then"; "We will have a demonstration ready in two years" should be followed by "So you don't have any idea of whether this is going to actually work? Please come back in a few decades", along with sighs of relief that Rua'fo wouldn't be among those returning.



This wouldn't work too well if we assume the Son'a are a subset of the Ba'ku. After all, the Son'a supposedly can't breed, yet were "rebellious youngsters" when they left and supposedly very soon thereafter began their own disastrous experiments at longevity so that many of them still survive after those centuries. How much breeding could have taken place before the experiments? And if the Son'a were a majority originally, why did they have to leave while the minority of 600 stayed?

If we instead assume the Son'a are the originating culture from which the Ba'ku originally fled, and the "rebellious youngsters" just returned home where everybody subsequently engaged in the longevity experiments and thus lost fertility, we could indeed say that some 600 were facing the horrible fate of not living forever while millions or billions of Son'a could simply go live on the planet for a while and thus become fertile again and possibly also immortal. But giving the Son'a a home base of billions of loyal natives (never mind the slaves who could be more a threat than an asset) plus the evident tech advantage would make it less plausible that they'd need the UFP for anything at all.

Timo Saloniemi

Putting it like that made think of it in real world terms for a minute...and the argument for being right becomes even murkier. (And the point some of us have been making even more easy to explain.) Basically....if the US discovers a resource in Britain, it's ok to remove the British to access it. In the scenario above, if the British discover something in modern America, it's ok to displace Americans to get it, especially if either side brings powerful friends. (The Baku are very much like family friendly pilgrims.) extend that still further, just in case the obvious colonialism (which some of us have already hinted at) hasn't sunk in yet.
Everyone in the world (outside of Africa) is the Son'Na. We left there a very long time ago. Now, we go back and displace the inhabitants we left behind because we want to strip mine a resource.
If it helps it can be a cure for cancer in some rainforest.
(Piller definitely intended this reading, it's why he's talking about fountains of youth and the heart of darkness when he was writing insurrection.)
The indigenous or not nature of the Baku sort of ceases to matter...there is no screen evidence of any other sentient inhabitants, the Baku haven't wiped out an indigenous species, all of that angle is just to make sure they aren't 'savages' as a group, they are a civilisation on a par with the Federation, whatever their apparent tech level.
If it's OK to just turn up and take land and move people and claim a resource for its benefits, then ask yourself where that would put the federation. Ask where it puts your own politics. The Baku may look like a recruitment video for the Aryan Dream, but I suspect their archetype is the alleged opposite of that.