How many people before it becomes wrong?, Star Trek Insurrection

[FormerLurker]

Banishing their upstart kids for trying to force the entire colony to live in a way they had abandoned was their prerogative

But it's okay for the elders to force the young adults to live a cerain way?

Don't parents always do that? Isn't that what parenting is?

. Making the upstarts get on a ship and leave

How'd they do that?

Not only forced them off the planet, the elders were able to beat the young adults in the rebellion.

As I said in my post (that you didn't quote), The Ba'ku knew the technology. Not their parents or grandparents or great-grandparents, them. The Ba'ku elders are the ones that first came to the Briar Patch, and therefore are the ones that knew the technology and how it worked. It was probably child's play for them to put a definitive end to the rebellion and banish the upstarts in the very ships they themselves wanted in the first place. I don't know about you, but it became rather plain to me that the elders' response to the rebellion was somewhere around "You want the ships? Take them. And don't come back."

 

[DonIago]

Which still begs the question of how they enforced it.

Because if the Ba'ku were somehow able to prevent the So'na from returning to the planet previously, then it hardly seems like the current situation should pose much of a threat unless something has changed.

 

[FormerLurker]

They've been away for 100-200 years. That is easily enough time for the elders to become at least rusty in their tech savvy. That's change. And it's probably exactly what the Son'a were waiting for.

 

[jaime]

If they were Puritans their side eventually won. (A bunch of party poopers, they banned Christmas)

And then it all flipped the other way a few years down the line. Great mess that all was.

 

[Nyotarules]

Watching this movie now, the planet is in claimed Federation space but it is not a Federation planet so what right did the Federation have to claim access to the particles? None as far as I can see.

 

[Vger23]

I voted "5 people," because that answer is about as dumb as this film.

 

[Tenacity]

so what right did the Federation have to claim access to the particles

The right that comes from the Federation intending to use the particles to help billions of people.

 

[FormerLurker]

Then the question becomes, are there enough particles for billions of people? What if the supply is limited once the source is rendered uninhabitable? What if the particles don't actually work anywhere but on the planet/in the Briar Patch? No one from the Federation seemed to be asking these questions, and they were the ones I most wanted answers to.

 

[DonIago]

Conversely, there's nothing to indicate that some level of testing hadn't been done prior to the Federation making the decision to relocate the Baku.

 

[Timo]

The setup seems to confirm two unyielding blocks in the way of a simple solution (else the simple solution would have been taken and the movie wouldn't happen):

1) Federation science simply cannot do anything much about the youth particles, while the Son'a successfully maintain the image that the more advanced Son'a science can (and the success in the latter basically proves the former).
2) The Federation feels that it has legal rights to the real estate and can defend them even against the advanced Son'a.

It's not difficult to accept these premises, really. Sure, the UFP heroes often unravel strange scientific mysteries, but there should be limits to what they can do, and Dougherty's "Our best minds confirm no can do" should be taken at face value. And the UFP isn't completely impotent in protecting its assets nor completely willing to make concessions.

Given the premises, I don't think we need to worry about unexplored possibilities. The Son'a would simply have explored them, or at least would claim to have done so, and the UFP would not be in a position to disagree. And conversely, Son'a jurists or soldiers would make no headway in trying to claim the Ba'ku planet no matter what.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Nyotarules]

The right that comes from the Federation intending to use the particles to help billions of people.

That's not a right, the planet and its inhabitants are not aligned to the Federation. Having watched this film again, despite the Baku not being the original sentient race on the planet as far as we know they are the only sentient race on the planet so have more rights than the Federation. I have changed my mind, the Federation's actions were morally repugnant. They were acting as potential petty thieves and kidnappers in the name of 'the greater good'

 

[Tenacity]

That's not a right

Neither is the Baku's "Uhhh ... we got here first."

 

[Nyotarules]

Neither is the Baku's "Uhhh ... we got here first."

Yes it is, they were living there for 300 years. With that mindset all migrations that took place from Europe to the West, Australasia and Africa are invalid.

 

[Jeyl]

Founder: You may win this war, Commander, but I promise you, when it is over, you will have lost so many ships, so many lives, that your victory will taste as bitter as defeat.
​

Unless the number of relocated Baku surpasses the casualties suffered on both sides of the Dominion War, inconveniencing 600 to potentially save millions of lives seems like a no-brainer.

 

[Nyotarules]

Founder: You may win this war, Commander, but I promise you, when it is over, you will have lost so many ships, so many lives, that your victory will taste as bitter as defeat.
​

Unless the number of relocated Baku surpasses the casualties suffered on both sides of the Dominion War, inconveniencing 600 to potentially save millions of lives seems like a no-brainer.

Kidnapping folks against their will and knowledge is more than an inconvenience, its a crime. Even more so when their planet is not your planet.

 

[Timo]

But it is their planet - this was clearly established. You may balk at it, but it's a Trek pseudo-fact and we have no reason to disbelieve in it.

And kidnapping is what the police do daily to criminals and suspected wrongdoers. Although they are seldom as gentle about it as the Fed/Son'a team would have been, had things proceeded according to their purported plan.

Wrong=/=crime and crime=/=wrong. If people thought that what is written in the law is also right, there'd be no need for the law in the first place.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Nyotarules]

Criminals and suspects are not kidnapped, they are told their rights and arrested due to a crime suspected of being committed. What crime did the Baku commit? None. What legal jurisdiction did the Federation have over them? None.
When did the Federation land on the surface and ask politely 'hi there, we love what you have, can we have it'? Never.
The planet did not belong to the Federation. Were the Baku asked to join? No.
The Federation acted like semi Klingons.

 

[Timo]

Criminals and suspects are not kidnapped

Irrelevant semantics.

they are told their rights and arrested due to a crime suspected of being committed.

On occasion, yes. The UFP rules on dealing with primitive cultures preclude this in the case at hand, though - no talking with the natives.

What crime did the Baku commit? None.

It's not your place to say. Squatting is a common grounds for getting kidnapped by the police today.

What legal jurisdiction did the Federation have over them? None.

They own the place. Squatting doesn't give you rights to a house.

When did the Federation land on the surface and ask politely 'hi there, we love what you have, can we have it'? Never.

And that's their definition of "right", apparently democratically arrived at (or at least Kirk appeared to claim the UFP was a democracy in "Errand of Mercy", even though other evidence is lacking). If you want different UFP laws, you have to go and vote.

The planet did not belong to the Federation.

But it did, and no amount of shouting to the contrary is going to change that. "A planet in Federation space" and "We have the planet" are straightforward declarations of ownership, undisputed by the heroes or the villains.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[DonIago]

I think it should be considered that even if standard Federation law would consider relocating the Baku illegal, it's brought up repeatedly that the Federation is currently at war...we know they're trying to fast-track additional planets, and it's quite possible that their decision regarding the Baku fell under "if we survive the war, then we'll feel bad about what we did".

Much like their silence = consent attitude regarding S31's attempted genocide of the Founders.

 

[Tenacity]

If I pull you out of the path of a fast approaching truck is that "kidnapping?"

The Federation was going to move the Baku to prevent them from being harmed when the Federation collected the Federation's particles from around the Federation's planet.