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"It is time for the Jedi ... to end" Poll/Discussion Thread

Which theory is most likely to explain Luke's words.

  • Luke really does want the Jedi to end because he has embraced the Dark Side.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Luke wants to reform the Jedi into something new and better.

    Votes: 8 17.8%
  • Luke wants to end the never ending cycle of war between Light and Dark.

    Votes: 13 28.9%
  • Luke has lost hope in the Jedi at the start of the movie but Rey helps him come around.

    Votes: 9 20.0%
  • Luke has learned a deeper truth about the Force and does not identify as either Jedi or Sith.

    Votes: 15 33.3%

  • Total voters
    45
^ You tell me; you're the one who brought up the subject of "Jedi temples".

Anyway, with Luke having been confirmed as the titular "Last Jedi" of the film (even if he's not the main protagonist), and with him having stated that the Jedi dogma needs to be abandoned, it will be interesting to see what ends up rising to take the Jedi Order's place and what Rey ends up becoming if she's not a Jedi Knight.
 
None of the above.........most likely a throw away line from the very start of the movie before he agrees to even help Rey.
 
^ You tell me; you're the one who brought up the subject of "Jedi temples".

Anyway, with Luke having been confirmed as the titular "Last Jedi" of the film (even if he's not the main protagonist), and with him having stated that the Jedi dogma needs to be abandoned, it will be interesting to see what ends up rising to take the Jedi Order's place and what Rey ends up becoming if she's not a Jedi Knight.

I'd explain it, but I'm at the point where I'm pretty sure you're being deliberately obtuse. At least I hope you are. I'd hate to think you're genuinely that thick. Either way I can't be arsed. Feel free to pretend you won the internet or something.
 
The third or fifth option are the most likely. The endless cycle of war between the "light" and "dark" side has been bad for the galaxy, and most importantly is draining the creative batteries. It's time for the Star Wars saga to move on to a new defining paradigm.
 
^ You tell me; you're the one who brought up the subject of "Jedi temples".

Anyway, with Luke having been confirmed as the titular "Last Jedi" of the film (even if he's not the main protagonist), and with him having stated that the Jedi dogma needs to be abandoned, it will be interesting to see what ends up rising to take the Jedi Order's place and what Rey ends up becoming if she's not a Jedi Knight.
Isn't "the Last Jedi" supposed to be plural?
 
I'd explain it, but I'm at the point where I'm pretty sure you're being deliberately obtuse. At least I hope you are. I'd hate to think you're genuinely that thick. Either way I can't be arsed. Feel free to pretend you won the internet or something.

You brought up Jedi temples, and I pointed out that, technically, whatever Luke established wasn't truly a "Jedi temple" (as per Pablo Hidalgo).
 
Speaking of Kylo's attack on the temple, it begs the question: where was Luke? Surely, if Kylo Ren and his Knights had attacked the temple full of Jedi apprentices when Luke was there, Luke would have tried to stop them. And I have to imagine that Luke had become a very powerful Jedi at this point. He probably could have stopped them. We do see the scene in the trailer where Luke and R2D2 are watching the temple burn from a distance. So this would seem to confirm that Luke was away at the time when Kylo attacked. It would explain why Luke was not able to stop the attack.
It could be that Ben was Luke's greatest apprentice, and when he left the Order Luke was so broken that it caused him to question the purpose of what he was doing. While on the search for the "beginning" of the Jedi he gets a distress call, and shows up too late to save anyone.
 
It could be that Ben was Luke's greatest apprentice, and when he left the Order Luke was so broken that it caused him to question the purpose of what he was doing. While on the search for the "beginning" of the Jedi he gets a distress call, and shows up too late to save anyone.

Very nice! Yes, it fits with the scene we saw of Luke and R2D2 watching the burning temple from afar. I can imagine Luke feeling a disturbance in the Force and rushing back only to see the burning temple from afar and realizing that he is too late.
 
Very nice! Yes, it fits with the scene we saw of Luke and R2D2 watching the burning temple from afar. I can imagine Luke feeling a disturbance in the Force and rushing back only to see the burning temple from afar and realizing that he is too late.
IT'S NOT A TEMPLE!!! PABLO HIDALGO SAID SO!!!!

I'm kidding, it was totally a temple, probably even had a gift shop and a decent incense bar.
 
The Clone Wars revealed the Nightsisters as non-Sith dark side users, and it had some episodes take place in the Mortis realm in which ancient Force-wielding beings existed that were neither Jedi nor Sith. Rebels brought us Bendu.
Would the Mortis family and Bendu be considered Force users? I had thought they were supposed to be physical manifestations of the Force itself (or at least that the Mortis family was, I haven't seen Season 3 of Rebels yet).
It could be that Ben was Luke's greatest apprentice, and when he left the Order Luke was so broken that it caused him to question the purpose of what he was doing. While on the search for the "beginning" of the Jedi he gets a distress call, and shows up too late to save anyone.
I had thought that Luke started looking for the origins of the Jedi after Ben/Kylo had wiped out his students, but I can't remember if there was actually to prove that.
 
Would the Mortis family and Bendu be considered Force users? I had thought they were supposed to be physical manifestations of the Force itself (or at least that the Mortis family was, I haven't seen Season 3 of Rebels yet).
According to Wookieepedia, the species of the Mortis family of Force-wielders is known as the Ones, citing the reference book Ultimate Star Wars.
 
According to Wookieepedia, the species of the Mortis family of Force-wielders is known as the Ones, citing the reference book Ultimate Star Wars.
Never mind wookipedia; the Father specifically said in the episode"Some call us force-wielders."
Kenobi claimed the Jedi have never spoken of them, to which the Father responded "Few still know of our existence."
Who those "some" and "few" are is a mystery in and of itself, though Bendu and others like him might be a safe bet. It's a big and very ancient galaxy after all.
 
I found this graphic of the Sith, Jedi and Grey Codes. Very cool! The more I think about it, the more think that Luke is a Grey Jedi. The book with what looks like the Grey Jedi symbol, the talk of balance and something bigger, the talk of ending the Jedi, and the fact that Luke is wearing grey.

tumblr_o811gihwNl1r7quado1_500.jpg
 
I found this graphic of the Sith, Jedi and Grey Codes. Very cool! The more I think about it, the more think that Luke is a Grey Jedi. The book with what looks like the Grey Jedi symbol, the talk of balance and something bigger, the talk of ending the Jedi, and the fact that Luke is wearing grey.

tumblr_o811gihwNl1r7quado1_500.jpg

First off, that graphic is fan made. Secondly, it's use of those symbols are somewhat misleading. All three are canon, but the one in the middle is not the symbol of the "Grey Jedi" (since there's no such thing, but more on that later) it is the symbol of the Jedi Order. The one on the right is in fact the symbol of the Old Republic. As in the Republic that fell to the Sith Empire(s?) before the whole Darth Bane and the Rule of Two thing and, obviously before the Republic featured in the prequels was founded. Or re-founded/restored/reformed, depending on how one views such things.

I won't mince words about the next bit since the trailer seems to have been giving people some ill informed ideas: "Grey Jedi" aren't a thing. It was something that was kicked around in the EU, mostly in the DH comics and a little in KotOR. The concept has no basis in anything GL has ever said or depicted and by all accounts, the current thinking at LF is that there ain't no such thing and there never was.

The idea of a Jedi that can use the dark side without consequence is anathema (to say nothing of pure fanwank.) It's like saying someone is a "tolerant Nazi" or a "carnivorous vegetarian". It's a contradiction in terms and stems mostly I think from a persistent misconception that the dark/light dichotomy of the Force is a simple "good vs. evil", "life vs death", "yin vs yang", and by extension a misunderstanding of what the concept of "the balance of the force" even means.

I've explained this once recently already this week, but I'll do so again: the dark side is not just another way to use the force, it's an aberrant perversion of the natural order. It's what happens when your take the natural give-and-take cycle of the Living Force & the Cosmic Force and bend it to your will, *causing* an imbalance. It's cancerous and insidious and toxic. There's no middle ground a Jedi can walk and still call themselves a Jedi.

Now this is not to say that there aren't other doctrines that view the force differently than the Jedi (there are!) nor that there can't be Jedi who leave the order and go there own way (there have been!) or even that there can't be some doctrinal schism within the order itself (there's been at least two that we know of!) But none of this has resulted in an individual or organisation with the appellation "Grey Jedi".

Ahsoka was not a Grey Jedi. She was a Jedi who left the order. After that, she was just Ahsoka.
Qui-Gon Jinn was not a Grey Jedi, he was a Master in the Jedi Order who was prone to disobeying the council. That doesn't in and of itself make him a special kind of Jedi. His ideas were more about a Jedi's relationship to the living and cosmic force. He did not propose that Jedi should use both the dark and light, because that would be preposterous.

Put simply: a Jedi that rejects the teachings of the Jedi is no longer a Jedi. QED. As I said, this has happened in canon. Typically said Jedi becomes a Sith, as was the case with Vader & Tyranus, though there's obviously more to it than that. Ventress trod a similar path, but she was never really a Sith and come to that, she was never a Jedi either. Her training was incomplete and it's implied her Master took her on without so much as informing the council (apparently even more of a maverick than Qui-Gon, but still not a "Grey Jedi" I'm afraid.)

The first of the two big examples is of course the Sith Order, who's founder believed (like some fans it seems) that the Dark Side was just another aspect of the force and one the council was foolishly ignoring. The council disagreed and expelled him from the order. So no longer a Jedi and certainly not "Grey".

The second is the Ordu Aspectu, which is something just recently added to canon and inspired by an old Marvel comic strip from way back, written as it happens by some obscure snake god worshipping comic book writer I'm sure nobody has heard of. ;)
Unlike the Sith (whom they may or may not predate: it's not clear), this splinter sect tried to make some sort of an accord with their former brethren Jedi, but what they were poking around with ultimately backfired and they were all (mostly) destroyed, lost and all but forgotten.
 
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