Maybe it took all these years for him to figure things out, especially after his last school got destroyed?
"It is time for the Jedi ... to end" Poll/Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Romulan_spy
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Luke became a Jedi "by default" by virtue of the fact that those who trained him - Obi-Wan and Yoda - were members of the Jedi Order and adherents to its principles, precepts, and rules, most of which were lost when the Sith - which was itself a specific sect of Force users - destroyed the bulk of the Order in Revenge of the Sith. However, because both Obi-Wan and Yoda had realized too late that the Jedi Order's precepts, rules, and principles were the very things that had led to its destruction, Luke would have had to discover the full extent of those precepts, rules, and principles, and their negative aspects, for himself.
But how much of this is canon, as opposed to EU (which is now irrelevant)? Rogue One established that there are force sensitive people, and I assume this has also been shown in Rebels. But are force sensitive folk able to wield the force in the same way the Jedi or Sith do? (honest question -- I'm not familiar enough with the Disney-approved cartoons).
The Clone Wars revealed the Nightsisters as non-Sith dark side users, and it had some episodes take place in the Mortis realm in which ancient Force-wielding beings existed that were neither Jedi nor Sith. Rebels brought us Bendu.
The statement that the Jedi and Sith are specific sects of Force users is explicitly Canon, as established by the final two seasons of The Clone Wars, the first 3 seasons of Rebels, and additional and subsequent materials.
In addition to the Jedi, you have the Children of the Force, the Guardians of the Whills, the Whills themselves, the Nightsisters (as mentioned), Bendu (as mentioned), the Mortis beings (as mentioned), and the Knights of Ren.
Do we actually know the Knights of Ren are force users? Perhaps Kylo is the only one.
Indeed we do not. That said, there's clearly something distinctive about them aside from their wardrobe. Plus the term "Knights" has only ever applied to Jedi prior to this, so it would track.
Plus the fact that it seems like just an handful of them took out an entire temple of Jedi and Jedi in training. Last time anyone attempted that it took a rogue Knight with an army at his back.
Seeing that no one has yet voted for Luke's transformation to the dark side, and remembering the theory that circulated once on the internet of his downfall, doesn't his dialog from the trailer remind you of Darth Traya's idealism, from Kotor II? I mean, although she was on the dark side, she professed the need to end with the force, the light side, the dark side, and everything associated with it.
If you're referring to Anakin attacking the Jedi Temple, he was no longer a Jedi by that point, having ceased to be part of the Order as soon as he formally accepted the title/moniker of Darth Vader.
Hence the "rogue" part of his description? Maybe it doesn't quite capture the full effect of Anakin's shift, but I took the meaning clearly enough.
^ You can't be a rogue Jedi if you're not actually a Jedi any longer, and, as noted, Anakin's status as a member of the Jedi Order was cancelled out and superseded the moment he knelt before Palpatine and was christened Darth Vader, which is the actual moment he became a Sith (not the earlier moment he chose to attack Mace Windu).
I feel you're either missing the thrust of this comparison or just enjoy being pedantic.
I understood the comparison you were attempting to make, but it's not actually a comparison that can be made according to what the term Jedi actually means and signifies.
We don't know when Ben Solo officially joined the Knights of Ren, so we cannot say whether or not he was still a member of Luke's Jedi Order at the time he killed the rest of his fellow students, but if he had already formally taken on the alias of Kylo Ren, he would not be a rogue Jedi either, leaving Bariss Offee as the only rogue Jedi in Star Wars Canon.
*sigh*
I see I'm going to have to to take a trip down condescension avenue because you not only missed the initial point, you flat out ignored the entire focus of the argument.
I'm not talking about competitive doctrinal beliefs, I'm talking about a person's training and skill set. Anakin was a Knight. He knew how to use a lightsaber. He was very good at it. This fact does not change just because he started wearing yellow contacts and got a creepy castle timeshare of lava planet. When he went after a big building fill of other laser-sword swingy people, he did so with an army of hardened veterans at his back.
Likewise, Kylo was at the very least a Padawan. He was vaguely competent with a lightsaber. When he went after a big building fill of other laser-sword swingy people, he did so with his little boy band backing him up.
Now, here's the important bit: if (and I stress "IF" because we still don't know exactly what went down) it really was just Kylo and the Knights of Ren that took down a temple full of people Luke had been training for over two decades, it would follow that there's more them than just their coordinated fashion choices. Ergo: they're *probably* force users of some description.
I see I'm going to have to to take a trip down condescension avenue because you not only missed the initial point, you flat out ignored the entire focus of the argument.
I'm not talking about competitive doctrinal beliefs, I'm talking about a person's training and skill set. Anakin was a Knight. He knew how to use a lightsaber. He was very good at it. This fact does not change just because he started wearing yellow contacts and got a creepy castle timeshare of lava planet. When he went after a big building fill of other laser-sword swingy people, he did so with an army of hardened veterans at his back.
Likewise, Kylo was at the very least a Padawan. He was vaguely competent with a lightsaber. When he went after a big building fill of other laser-sword swingy people, he did so with his little boy band backing him up.
Now, here's the important bit: if (and I stress "IF" because we still don't know exactly what went down) it really was just Kylo and the Knights of Ren that took down a temple full of people Luke had been training for over two decades, it would follow that there's more them than just their coordinated fashion choices. Ergo: they're *probably* force users of some description.
Speaking of Kylo's attack on the temple, it begs the question: where was Luke? Surely, if Kylo Ren and his Knights had attacked the temple full of Jedi apprentices when Luke was there, Luke would have tried to stop them. And I have to imagine that Luke had become a very powerful Jedi at this point. He probably could have stopped them. We do see the scene in the trailer where Luke and R2D2 are watching the temple burn from a distance. So this would seem to confirm that Luke was away at the time when Kylo attacked. It would explain why Luke was not able to stop the attack.
Pretty much. Also probably not a coincidence that they'd choose to attack when he just happened to be away. Either through foreknowledge of where he'd be and when or because Ben specifically lured him away for this very purpose.
As a point of clarification, Luke didn't have a "Jedi Temple" as such (per Pablo Hidalgo), so it's entirely possible that Ben/Kylo took out his fellow Jedi students single-handedly.
It all depends on whether or not Ben had officially joined the Knights of Ren by the point that he betrayed Luke.
It all depends on whether or not Ben had officially joined the Knights of Ren by the point that he betrayed Luke.
I voted 5, 2 is also an option.
In the old EU, there were many groups of force users, the Jedi and the Sith being the two most dominant. The Jedi are as narrowminded with their dogmas as the Sith, clinging to old and outdated concepts that have caused more internal strife than was ever good for them.
Luke has come to realize that the Balance is more than just someone who's calm and centered. It's like our age old concept of Ying and Yang.
In the old EU, there were many groups of force users, the Jedi and the Sith being the two most dominant. The Jedi are as narrowminded with their dogmas as the Sith, clinging to old and outdated concepts that have caused more internal strife than was ever good for them.
Luke has come to realize that the Balance is more than just someone who's calm and centered. It's like our age old concept of Ying and Yang.
How is *any* of that even remotely relevant?
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