Spoilers DC's Legends of Tomorrow - Season 2
- Thread starter Commander Richard
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I'm glad he didn't choose that, though. He chose to trust Amaya with that power rather than himself, and that was the perfect resolution. All he's ever really wanted was someone to trust and accept him. Amaya gave him that, and he gave her trust and acceptance in return. Better a family whose trust he really earned than one he fabricated out of wishful thinking.
Here's a question about last night--if the Spear of Destiny changes reality, then time travel shouldn't be able to stop it, because reality must be altered in all time periods to get to the world these people want.
So somehow, Thawne would have been able to not have Eddie kill himself, which would preserve his existence. At least, that's the theory. For me, the only reason that time monster thingy was in the cage was because Thawne wanted it that way. He chose it.
That's why it was unclear how going back to 1917 would work. The reality where the Legends came from should not be accessible via time travel.
Time travel should be the solution, but it should be to a time before Thawne destroyed the Spear, which literally could have been a few minutes before he did so in 2017.
When Mick had the spear, all he had to do was use it to alter reality so that it's back to normal, except Snart lives.
So somehow, Thawne would have been able to not have Eddie kill himself, which would preserve his existence. At least, that's the theory. For me, the only reason that time monster thingy was in the cage was because Thawne wanted it that way. He chose it.
That's why it was unclear how going back to 1917 would work. The reality where the Legends came from should not be accessible via time travel.
Time travel should be the solution, but it should be to a time before Thawne destroyed the Spear, which literally could have been a few minutes before he did so in 2017.
When Mick had the spear, all he had to do was use it to alter reality so that it's back to normal, except Snart lives.
He tried that, though -- giving the Spear to the Legion in exchange for getting Snart back -- and it didn't work out. It just made things worse and alienated the Legends, whose trust meant more to him than he'd realized. So he wasn't about to make the same mistake again by trying to use the Spear for his own interest. He'd probably just screw it up anyway. Better to trust Amaya with it.
Besides, could he even have recited the incantation? He couldn't even pronounce the name of the text it was from.
Maybe the Spear of Destiny does not really work the way the characters think. How can anyone really know it's changes to history can not be undone? Has it been used before at all?
But the problem is, the characters suddenly do think its changes can be undone by time travel, when before they didn't think that. It's not a difference between their thinking and a demonstrated reality, it's an unexplained change in their thinking.
But he didn't get Snart back. This is a past version of Snart, not the one that died having his death undone. They plucked Snart out of time from before he joined the Legends.
The version we are watching is a guy who didn't sacrifice himself yet, not the man returned.
At this point, we have the word of the characters. But the twist this week, the idea that they can go back to 1917 and get the spear and interact with their past selves, goes against what they said the Spear is all about.
If ordinary time travel can get the spear back, then why do they even need the spear? Why go back to 1917 at the same time? Why not go back to 1910, before WWI, dig up Christ's blood, go to 1968, find Grandpa Heywood, and destroy his piece of the Spear before the Legion of Doom gets to the moon? And then go find the other pieces of the spear and do the same thing?
And if this is so easily undone, then how does it save Thawne? The time monster in that case is quite real, just in a cage. It's still after Thawne and Thawne is still a time remnant, not a real being.
The whole point of the spear is that it's NOT time travel. That it's something more. If that's not the case, then why use it? Thawne could have built this reality by smart historical changes.
Of course, why didn't Thawne just alter history so Eddie never shoot himself?
The spear of destiny creates effects.
Timetravel creates causes.
Two ends of the same Rube Goldberg machine.
Two ends of a book.
Once upon a time vs. Happily ever after.
Also.
TIME QUAKES!
No aberrations or Time quakes with the spear.
After they change reality, the universe is perfectly level and flush.
No unexpected side effects or karmic backslap from fate.
Timetravel creates causes.
Two ends of the same Rube Goldberg machine.
Two ends of a book.
Once upon a time vs. Happily ever after.
Also.
TIME QUAKES!
No aberrations or Time quakes with the spear.
After they change reality, the universe is perfectly level and flush.
No unexpected side effects or karmic backslap from fate.
They have run out of options and are desperate. Seems a good time to test if the Spear is really so powerful or if those are just stories that became added to its legend over the centuries.
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Yes, obviously, that's the point. What Mick wanted was to get Snart back. What he realized was that things didn't work out the way he wanted, that his attempt to get what he wanted only made things worse. That's why he didn't trust himself to try again.
Why does Jesus' leaking fluids invent WMDs?
This is what happened. Barry traveled to 2000 to stop Thawne from killing his mother and succeeded. He kept Thawne as a prisoner in his time during the few months that Flashpoint existed. Realizing that he had screwed up, Barry took this Thawne and returned him back to 2000 so that the latter could kill Nora Allen and have history play out as it did in Season One of "THE FLASH".
After Eddie Thawne had created a time paradox by killing himself and erasing Eobard Thawne from existence, the Speed Force created this time remnant with memories of what happened in "THE FLASH" Season One. Because Thawne also had memories of Flashpoint, so does this time remnant. Even Ray Palmer had pointed out that he was a time remnant. It is Time Remnant Thawne who used the Spear of Destiny in "LEGENDS OF TOMORROW". And the only reason the Speed Force is using Black Flash aka Zoom aka Hunter Zolomon to get him, is because Time Remnant Thawne has been abusing the timeline. If this time remnant is caught or killed, the Speed Force will be forced to create another time remnant of Thawne in order to prevent Eddie Thawne's time paradox from screwing up the universe.
But he then brought that Thawne back to the present with him and let him get away. So that Thawne should have never been stuck in 2000, become Harrison Wells, and did all the other stuff we know. So it's inconsistent.
All the other shows are going on hiatus this week, and by the time they get back this will (probably) be fixed. Also, before the schedule shuffling this would have aired Thursday, after all the other shows so there wouldn't even be the minimal overlap of tonight's episode of Arrow.
So does the Spear effect only Earth 1 or all the DC Universes and also has it wiped out what came before or has it simply created a separate self contained Universe (it would help with the other shows carrying on like nothing has happened). Time Travel does seem like a cop out after we told it changes reality which means it basically overrides time travel being a defence against it. You'd think the speed force beings or powerful beings like Savitar etc would have an issue with Thawne changing history, they must of known what the Legion was up too all this time?'
I was hoping Barry Allen would turn up during this season since the villian was Thawne but that looks like a no go, so I wonder if Thawne will survive the season finale to resume his conflict with Barry in later seasons of Flash because whenever it ends, it feels like The Flash should go out fighting Reverse Flash.
I was hoping Barry Allen would turn up during this season since the villian was Thawne but that looks like a no go, so I wonder if Thawne will survive the season finale to resume his conflict with Barry in later seasons of Flash because whenever it ends, it feels like The Flash should go out fighting Reverse Flash.
The way I understand it, time travel cannot undo the changes to reality.
But two things exist in this reality.
The Waverider and the spear.
But the spear got destroyed in the present.
It still exists in the past.
The waverider can go to the past to a point where the spear was not in possession of the legion.
They can then alter reality with it again, to avoid fallout from them interacting with their own timeline.
Basically do the exact same thing Thawne did.
Which means the spear can never really be destroyed as long as it exists in any point in time.
Possibly the only thing that can destroy it is itself by creating a reality in which it never existed?
Oh god... they are doing Year of Hell.
That just leaves a major plothole.
If the reality is changed perfectly, why does everyone remember it on a subconscious level?
That makes no sense.
But of course that is a trope we have to put up with.
Though I wouldn't have minded a guest appearance of Vibe to get the ball rolling.
He is the one character that should be able to retain a memory of an altered reality.
He could have been the one Sara and Amaya were hunting down in the beginning for that very reason, instead of Felicity
But two things exist in this reality.
The Waverider and the spear.
But the spear got destroyed in the present.
It still exists in the past.
The waverider can go to the past to a point where the spear was not in possession of the legion.
They can then alter reality with it again, to avoid fallout from them interacting with their own timeline.
Basically do the exact same thing Thawne did.
Which means the spear can never really be destroyed as long as it exists in any point in time.
Possibly the only thing that can destroy it is itself by creating a reality in which it never existed?
Oh god... they are doing Year of Hell.
That just leaves a major plothole.
If the reality is changed perfectly, why does everyone remember it on a subconscious level?
That makes no sense.
But of course that is a trope we have to put up with.
Though I wouldn't have minded a guest appearance of Vibe to get the ball rolling.
He is the one character that should be able to retain a memory of an altered reality.
He could have been the one Sara and Amaya were hunting down in the beginning for that very reason, instead of Felicity
That's what Crazy Conspiracy Theorist Nate's ranting was meant to justify, when he was talking about "scars" in reality by analogy with the scars left over by surgery.
The impression I get is that the Spear isn't necessarily more powerful in its reality-altering ability than time travel, just using a different mechanism. It doesn't go back and change the way the past unfolded, it rewrites the state of reality in the present. Although if the past still remains un-rewritten and accessible to time travelers, that does kind of defeat Thawne's whole purpose of using the Spear as a time-travel-proof way of altering reality. And I agree, it's odd that getting rid of the Black Flash wasn't the first thing he did.
Maybe it's just that Thawne was wrong. He had certain expectations about what the Spear was capable of, and it turned out the reality didn't quite measure up. Maybe he was so desperate for survival that he latched onto this scheme and didn't really think it through.
When I saw Amaya frozen and killed by Snart, I knew there was going to be a reset button, i.e. the team going back in time to 1916, as shown in next week's preview.
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