Opinions on Michael Eddington

[fireproof78]

I wonder how much of that was his own ego and how much was just egging Sisko on further.

But he was genuine, and I would love to read about a defiant Eddington declaring a Maquis State on the Viewscreen after crushing the Cardassians, whupping the federation, and leading his troops to victory.

I don't think Eddington was as genuine as he presented. I think he was a master manipulator and looking for a cause to support his ego.

Also, I think we saw that movie. It was called "Star Wars."

Can't say I really read the Maquis that way, they were a fly in the ointment for the Cardassians and the Federation, whose primary threat was they might provoke a full scale war between the two. I never saw them as really standing much chance of hurting the Cadassians much outside the badlands.

I'd say the founders did a pretty good job of making their own luck there. The infiltration tactics worked time and again for them and they readily got into the most secure privy councils of pretty much every known AQ power

The Founders had the Romulans and the Cardassians pegged from the word go. There was a great episode, "The Search" were the Dominion set up a virtual reality to test how different members would respond to a peace treaty with the Dominion. They already had a fairly decent idea about how each race would respond, which you don't get from brief observation. Once the plan was learned by the Founders, it was only a matter of time.

Had the acquired or developed the weaponry to do so then yes they would have and I think with the necessary "back channels" statehood declaration, and the Maquis's own resourcefulness could have cooked something up that would have turned Cardassia into ashes.

Which takes his cause from a "defend our homes" to genocidal levels of awfulness. Which, brings me back to the point that Eddington turned in to a egotistical jerk, with delusions of superiority, that nearly dragged the Alpha Quadrant in to a war.

 

[Guy Gardener]

^ Then the Maquis would be no better than ISIS.

In the beginning (TNG) it was Farmers vs Farmers on colony border worlds.

That's cool because it's a fair fight. Poorly armed idiots vs poorly armed idiots.

Then there's an episode of Voyager (Meld) where B'Elanna explains that the Maquis were not picky about who they allowed to sign up to their ranks. They took any one, which meant that it wasn't about farmers vs farmers anymore, it was serial killers and speciesists looking for zones where they can legally kill the species that they are not so keen on, in very large numbers.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

What about Teero Anaydis, that Bajoran vedek who used Tuvok as a sleeper agent? IIRC, the Maquis wouldn't let Teero into their ranks (due to his use of mind control).

Which indicates - to me, anyway - that Teero didn't happen to apply to Eddington's particular Maquis group. Eddington's the kind who actually WOULD let Teero join. More honorable leaders such as Chakotay or Cal Hudson would not.

 

[Paradise City]

Eddington wouldn't use mind control. He sees himself as Robin Hood type; not a Bond villain.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Eddington would use whatever and whoever he felt like. Because it's all about him.

 

[Paradise City]

Eddington would use whatever and whoever he felt like. Because it's all about him.

Nope. He's not unscrupulous. He likes hit & run spectaculars and the rush of being a Robin Hood type -- and this deludes him. But his self image is that of a honourable man. Eddington using Terro would be a grotesque mischaracterisation of him. Teero is a guy that's basically too hot for any of the Maquis to handle.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

But his self image is that of a honourable man.

His self image, maybe. Just because Eddington sees himself as honorable doesn't mean he actually is.

You claim that Eddington has scruples? Fine. Name ONE.

Teero is a guy that's basically too hot for any of the Maquis to handle.

And yet the Maquis took Lon Suder...

 

[Guy Gardener]

Sisko was duped and looking from a couple upposts, so were some of you too.

Eddington was not a Robin Hood type.

He facilitated that illusion, so that his surrender would be epic.

That entire story, everything that happened, was a trap that Sisko fell for, right down to using biogenic weapons, and forcing the Maquis and cardies to switch planets.

In this episode, Sisko was matching wits with some one a lot smarter than he was, who got exactly what he wanted by telling the correct lies at the correct moments, that Sisko did not even understand that he was being duped.

 

[Voth commando1]

A Maquis state would have inevitably included elements of society rejected by major powers-ruffians, pirates, criminals, and psychopaths.

But it wouldn't be a Homo sapiens only club. You would have bajorans, humans, Vulcans, Klingons, Bolians, perhaps a few Andorians. And others as well.

A Maquis state would control the former DMZ with perhaps adding on other federation border colonies and anything thing they could wrest from the Cardassians. Eddington would have the state on full lockdown keeping the Klingons/Federation/Romulans/Rump Cardassians at bay while negotiating with them.

It would have been a great ideological blow to the federation. Other powers see a disunited humanity. Perhaps you would even have immigration as people sympathetic to the maquis/or elements of society not valued by the federation join the new state further bolstering it.

Eddington would have been a wily negotiator dealing with the romulans, Klingon, and Feds from a position of confidence if not material strength.

 

[Paradise City]

His self image, maybe. Just because Eddington sees himself as honorable doesn't mean he actually is.



And yet the Maquis took Lon Suder...

He thinks himself honourable and that governs some of his behaviour.

Eddington surrendered himself in an effort to save lives. He went that extra mile to rescue the missus and some of the Maquis survivors. He's vainglorious and deluded -- but he's not unscrupulous. He's not going to tap the skills of some sort of 'Mental Mengele' type. He's flies by the wire -- but he's not a zero sum guy.

And Suder didn't send in his CV to the Maquis detailing his strengths: "nutjob". He was a loner that concealed the exact nature of his pathology.

 

[Will M.]

Here's my thing. It's not the lyrics, it's the music. The words he says are all well and good, but it is how he says them and his intent in saying them. He feels like a phony to me. He feels like someone who just joined something to feel different, and says the party line without understanding what it means or having a full appreciation for it's depth.

Great metaphor but for the same reason you dislike Eddington (so did I) I found him authentic as a Maquis. The original Maquis were deeply ideological but as passionate as Eddington sounds with great speeches he's a later adopter. Like most 3rd phase adopters of movements they tend to be the rebel without a cause at heart who latch onto something. They are also the ones woefully under-informed. I find many parallels with Eddington in modern American society especially as you go to the fringes of political movements.

Those 3rd phase adopters are almost impervious to any sort of logic, reasoning , or factual counter points. They ignore the facts because the cause gives them a sense of belonging. It doesn't matter if you go left or right but if you go to the extremes your assortment is ideologues surrounded by those who want to belong. Just to avoid "current" issues I remember serving in Iraq coming home and having discussions with those looking for that belonging on both sides. People on the far right telling me that fighting was incredibly rare and those on the ultra left telling me i was a liar because I hadn't witnessed US Forces shooting civilians, which they perceived as a daily occurrence done by soldiers. Both very wrong but they were incredible passionate , believed everything they said fully, and both bloody fools.

Eddington reminds me very much of some of those types; passionate to the core , dogmatically knowledgeable about with the refrains of their cause, but because they don't really understand the nuance of their cause they are unable to perceive anything that's not totally victory or total defeat. There can be no compromises because the world is black and white; Eddington is such a figure in the story and while I really hated his character and still do, when I rewatch it he's more understandable. A man who needs to belong to something and then finds the cause.

 

[Voth commando1]

What's wrong with wanting a cause more than what you have?

What would Eddington be if he didn't take up the "glorious cause"?

Another gold shirted non-descript security officer on a space station. A mere blimp in history, just another potential casualty or piece of bandwidth on a federation database.

That's an interesting problem with a post-scarcity society if all your material needs are met the incentive to be more than what you are is reduced and the understanding therein vilified.

In scarcity societies the people that mattered were the kings, priests, general's, religious figures and scholars. Joe the peasant was just dirt to be crumpled under.

But the incentive for him to rise up lead a revolution, strive and pray for something better, somethings to give his soul satisfaction even if his body was broken was IT.

In post-scarcity the incentive to seek out something greater than yourself, or your petty career, or petty relationships don't exist.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

What would Eddington be if he didn't take up the "glorious cause"?

Another gold shirted non-descript security officer on a space station. A mere blimp in history, just another potential casualty or piece of bandwidth on a federation database.

Eddington wasn't just a random security guard. He was a senior officer. He could have made a fine career around that. Could have even been an Admiral someday. But that wasn't enough for him, was it? And that's HIS problem, not the Federation's.

I think it's important to point out that this thread is not about the righteousness, or lack thereof, of the Maquis cause in general. If you want to sell me on the Maquis' POV, there's plenty of honorable people such as Chakotay or Hudson you could mention. I just don't think that Eddington is the best candidate to put forth the thrust of the Maquis gist.

Because what Eddington cares most about IS HIMSELF. He filters the entire Maquis cause through his OWN prejudices and ego. Hell, the reason he sacrificed himself in a "blaze of glory" was so he could be SEEN doing so...

 

[Will M.]

What's wrong with wanting a cause more than what you have?

What would Eddington be if he didn't take up the "glorious cause"?

Another gold shirted non-descript security officer on a space station. A mere blimp in history, just another potential casualty or piece of bandwidth on a federation database.

Nothing wrong with wanting to be part of more than you are. In fact its something I very much admire and strive to myself from building a company point of view.

The danger comes in with those who believe the phrasing of the ideology blindly despite all facts. Who can recite the bumper stickers but can't take time to read the book its based on. Who shout Sic Semper Tyranus when dealing with freely elected leaders. It's makes them very dangerous like Eddington, the facts are irrelevant to them. Looking at history, many of the Japanese leaders at the close of WWII knew they had been defeated but even post atomic bomb wanted to fight until the very bitter end. To force the allies to annihilate them. Emperor Hirohito on the other hand knows he's just a man, a powerful person, but one who actually knows and has knowledge. His options thus are not just victory or annihilation; but surrender and rebuild. Eddington is closer to Kenji Hatanaka who still had a belief in the deification of the monarchy so surrendering it was the same as annihilation and thus why he tries a palace coup.

 

[Voth commando1]

What's wrong subsuming yourself to a higher cause? Whether that cause be political, religious, or social. To me living a life of mundane hedonism and careerism seems empty and unfulfilling.

And what's wrong with glory? What's wrong with wanting to be the revolutionary that storms the palace of the general on the horse charging the hordes?

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

And what's wrong with glory? What's wrong with wanting to be the revolutionary that storms the palace of the general on the horse charging the hordes?

If you give your life to a "cause", you have an obligation to do it for the right reasons. And personal glory and self-advancement are not the way to do it, because that will blind you to the real reasons why you should be doing what you're doing. To wit:

- Being a Maquis because "the Cardassians in the DMZ are harassing innocent people and need to be stopped" can be a good thing.

- Being a Maquis because "I want everyone to kneel down and worship me because I'm such an awesome leader" is NOT a good thing.

And why is this? Because those who are in it for the ego, like Eddington, are likely to slip up and make mistakes and be blinded to the larger realpolitik at work here. Those who truly believe in what they're doing - who believe that the righteousness of the goal is MORE important than their own personal glory - are much less likely to fuck up.

 

[Voth commando1]

If you give your life to a "cause", you have an obligation to do it for the right reasons. And personal glory and self-advancement are not the way to do it, because that will blind you to the real reasons why you should be doing what you're doing. To wit:

- Being a Maquis because "the Cardassians in the DMZ are harassing innocent people and need to be stopped" can be a good thing.

- Being a Maquis because "I want everyone to kneel down and worship me because I'm such an awesome leader" is NOT a good thing.

And why is this? Because those who are in it for the ego, like Eddington, are likely to slip up and make mistakes and be blinded to the larger realpolitik at work here. Those who truly believe in what they're doing - who believe that the righteousness of the goal is MORE important than their own personal glory - are much less likely to fuck up.

Who says Eddington or anyone need be blind to real politick or political realities in general? No one should seek to change the world without being grounded in such things.

Why shouldn't submission to the "Cause" be harmonized with a desire for glory and historical remembrance? Why must glory and sacrifice be in conflict?

 

[DonIago]

I don't believe anyone's saying those things can't exist, just that Eddington didn't get the formula right and led a lot of lemmings off a cliff in the process.

As has already been said, Hudson or Chakotay would seem more likely to be able to balance personal glory with the good of the cause.

 

[Voth commando1]

Sisko in a manner befitting the vanity of Starfleet said that-that Eddington led his people to doom and promised them something impossible.

I disagree Eddington led the Maquis to great success, the Cardassians were on the run and the federation was reeling.

History is often more contingent than admitted.

I can fully empathize with Eddington you want glory and fame and adoration yet also you want to subsume yourself in a cause greater than you. That's a very real sentiment. No one wants to be the foot solider or the cook. And no one wants to be rich but not remembered or lead a mundane existence doing so.

Eddington had he prevailed(and arguably anyway) could have caused great ripples throughout the federation and the Galaxy.

Leading the troops into battle, going up against the Titans, yet having a cause you devote your heart and soul for is truly admirable.

 

[kkt]

Had the changeling not infiltrated the OP then it would have succeeded.

I don't think you get it. The changelings wanted the attack to happen, to cripple two of the bigger powers in the Alpha Quadrant. They pushed it along, the Romulan changling we saw and probably others as well. If the Dominion hadn't wanted the attack to happen, their infiltrators would have played up jealousy between factions on both Cardassia and Romulus and between them, and would have had Jem Hadar surrounding the Gamma Quadrant side of the wormhole as well, just in case. Even the location of the Founders' homeworld that the Defiant thought they discovered was probably a set up just for this operation. Why, I bet they layed this trap in the Gamma Quadrant before.