The Return of Doctor Mysterio (Grade & Discussion Thread

[Christopher]

If he has the same powers and power levels as Superman, where was he when... take your pick and insert any major Doctor Who or real-world event of the last few years or indeed to come.

Where were UNIT or Torchwood during the incidents from The Sarah Jane Adventures or Class? This is the kind of question that comes up in any such shared universe, and usually you just have to shrug it off and assume the other guys were busy elsewhere. In this case, the fact that the Ghost operates in New York may explain it, because the Doctor's Earth-based adventures are usually in the UK, and he hasn't been able to get to New York for a while now.

Then again, maybe it's a timeline change. Modern Doctor Who seems to assume that history is constantly changing due to the interventions of time travelers, that only certain "fixed points" remain constant. The Twelfth Doctor created a new path for history by giving Grant that crystal, so the Ghost wouldn't have existed in any of the Doctor's prior adventures.

 

[Yminale]

Maybe Ghost/Grant is the reason the Doctor rarely travels to the US and NYC in particular.

 

[The Wormhole]

Where were UNIT or Torchwood during the incidents from The Sarah Jane Adventures or Class?

SJA takes place after the battle at Canary Wharf, meaning Torchwood would no longer have a presence in London. Indeed, seasons 3-5 take place after Children of Earth, meaning even Torchwood Cardiff has been disbanded as well. UNIT does occasionally get involved in SJA, although the two examples which come to memory at the moment are rogue operations.

UNIT's absence in Class is a continued mystery, given they are frequently mentioned. But then, London's emergency services seem oddly absent throughout Class as well.

 

[Christopher]

^It was a rhetorical question. You could just as easily ask why Superman doesn't clean up the crime in Gotham City on his lunch hour. Or why Iron Man doesn't call in the Avengers in his solo movies. It's just a standard conceit in shared-hero universes that the other heroes won't show up to help unless it's a crossover story.

 

[The Wormhole]

You could just as easily ask why Superman doesn't clean up the crime in Gotham City on his lunch hour.

Actually, in the DCEU that is a very legitimate question, considering Gotham and Metropolis are across the harbour from each other, accord to Batman VS Superman.

 

[Christopher]

Actually, in the DCEU that is a very legitimate question, considering Gotham and Metropolis are across the harbour from each other, accord to Batman VS Superman.

That goes back to the comics in 1978, actually, with Metropolis and Gotham being respectively on the Delaware and New Jersey coasts of Delaware Bay, with the Metro Narrows Bridge connecting them:

http://dccomicsmovie.com/gotham-and-metropolis-being-separated-by-a-bay-is-canon/

 

[N-121973]

^It was a rhetorical question. You could just as easily ask why Superman doesn't clean up the crime in Gotham City on his lunch hour. Or why Iron Man doesn't call in the Avengers in his solo movies. It's just a standard conceit in shared-hero universes that the other heroes won't show up to help unless it's a crossover story.

You make some pretty good points Christopher. But I think the difference here is that it isn't a shared superhero universe, The Ghost is the only one (that we know of) and although based in New York, you would presume with his powerset that for example during the events of 'Chrildren of Earth' he'd get involved. Let's not forget the Daleks attacked New York and he was absent. Of course the off screen reason is that he hadn't been created yet. But it does raise that issue and now that he is out there, even if he's in retirement, UNIT are going to be interested in him in the same way that the DEO in Supergirl are interested in her, they are afterall Earth-38's UNIT right down to their call signs, 'Greyhound' and 'Trap One'.

 

[Timelord79 (he/him)]

Children of Earth aside, we never saw the Dalek invasion of New York (the recent global one, not the pigslave one).
For all we know the Ghost kicked Dalek butts, but they kept coming in and he couldn't do more than keep them at bay.

 

[Christopher]

You make some pretty good points Christopher. But I think the difference here is that it isn't a shared superhero universe...

I said shared-hero universe. Hero in the sense of the protagonist of a fictional series, regardless of genre. The principle applies to any multi-series franchise. The answer to "Why doesn't the Ghost show up to help the Doctor?" is the same as "Why doesn't the Flash show up to help the Green Arrow?" or "Why doesn't the Enterprise show up to help the Defiant?" or "Why doesn't Detective Munch show up to help Detectives Goren and Eames?" It's because they're still separate series and their respective stars need to solve their own problems. Crossovers are the exception, not the rule. This will always be the case, regardless of what in-universe excuses you have to make up for it.

 

[Solid Snack]

No wonder they're mad at Moffat: http://www.bbc.co.uk/editorialguidelines/guidelines/editorial-integrity/product-placement

 

[Lonemagpie]

Not seeing a connection there.

 

[Photoman15]

No wonder they're mad at Moffat: http://www.bbc.co.uk/editorialguidelines/guidelines/editorial-integrity/product-placement

Are you trying to refer to Superman (et al) in the Christmas special? Just an FYI, there were Marvel & DC characters all over young Grant's wall. I wouldn't call it product placement considering what the story was. And if this is what you're talking about, there is no evidence that DC/Marvel etc... made any payment for the placement. That's what that Editorial Integrity page is about. Not placement itself, paid placement.

 

[Christopher]

If anything, Doctor Who would probably have had to pay DC and Marvel for the right to use their character names and likenesses. There have been times in the past when overseas productions have used trademarks without permission (like Monty Python's "Bicycle Repairman" sketch with its heavy use of Superman's name and costume), but it's a more global era we live in and the series is shown in the UK and the US simultaneously, so they'd probably have to get permission.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

If anything, Doctor Who would probably have had to pay DC and Marvel for the right to use their character names and likenesses.

Absolutely. As an example, it's well known that Moffat wanted to put a reference to the Peter Cushing Doctor Who films in "Day of the Doctor" by showing one of the posters in UNIT's Black Archive. But it was financially prohibitive to do so, so it wasn't present.

I'm with Christopher here. I doubt Moffat could have put those Superman comics in Doctor Who and shown their panels on-screen without DC's permission.

 

[Tom]

Anyone notice the verbal nod to Superman's creators Shuster and Siegel at the beginning of the press conference scene ?

 

[Skipper]

Anyone notice the verbal nod to Superman's creators Shuster and Siegel at the beginning of the press conference scene ?

Yep!

 

[N-121973]

I said shared-hero universe. Hero in the sense of the protagonist of a fictional series, regardless of genre. The principle applies to any multi-series franchise. The answer to "Why doesn't the Ghost show up to help the Doctor?" is the same as "Why doesn't the Flash show up to help the Green Arrow?" or "Why doesn't the Enterprise show up to help the Defiant?" or "Why doesn't Detective Munch show up to help Detectives Goren and Eames?" It's because they're still separate series and their respective stars need to solve their own problems. Crossovers are the exception, not the rule. This will always be the case, regardless of what in-universe excuses you have to make up for it.

I fully agree with what you say. Those examples you give however, are of characters that have their own shows/titles so naturally they have to be able to solve their own problems except on special occasions. I gather that's one of the reasons that Supergirl was set in a different physical universe from the other Arrowverse shows, to explain away Superman's absence and lack of reference in Flash & Arrow (along with the fact it started on CBS rather than the CW). But this is different, there is no Ghost show, at least not yet, it's simply a character created for a single episode. To me at least, his existence has raised questions. What prompted him to start flying around in a costume at the time of the Christmas Special? What was he doing to occupy him to the point he couldn't and wouldn't intervene in big events prior to that since he obviously had these great powers? In the Doctor Who universe there's only really been two occasions that I can recall when the Dr. encountered threats from traditional supervillains per se and that is Salamander in The Enemy of the World and the group behind the Robot in Tom Baker's debut episode. It's like the Silence, what's the onscreen reason for their absence before Matt Smith's tenure on the show?

 

[Christopher]

But this is different, there is no Ghost show, at least not yet, it's simply a character created for a single episode.

But the point is, there's nothing new about the question of why the Doctor didn't have help dealing with crisis X or crisis Y. We've had to rationalize that ever since the Fourth Doctor started having Earthbound adventures without calling on UNIT. So it's kind of disingenuous to pose the question about the Ghost as if the issue had never come up before.

It's like the Silence, what's the onscreen reason for their absence before Matt Smith's tenure on the show?

Oh, that's built into the concept. They were always there; we just didn't remember them.

 

[USS Fardell]

An interesting story, but it wasn't executed as well as it could have been. However, that doesn't mean it wasn't enjoyable. The fact that it follows up on the previous christmas special (in that it is acknowledged that the Doctor is missing River Song) is appreciated. More on that later. The teaser, where Grant gains his powers via the Doctor's misunderstanding, is well done.
It leads well into the rest of the episode. Harmony Shoal is an interesting group of villains, but I don't think their plan was well thought through. I wouldn't think that the world's leaders would go to their local Harmony Shoal, rather than their own bunkers. They'd be suspicious of why Harmony Shoal New York survived when the rest of the City didn't. So their plan would fail right there. Of course the Doctor had to save New York (with Grant's help), it would be uncharacteristic if he didn't.
.Of course, that's not everything that this episode involves. There is also Grant and Lucy's interaction. (I could call it a relationship, but I'm not sure what that would imply about other interactions, including real life ones.) Certainly, the fact that Lucy is oblivious is reflective of the inspiration provided by a certain DC Comics property, but it doesn't work as well here. She seems to spend a lot more time with Grant than Lois does with Clark. The resolution at the end works, but not as well as it should.
There's not much to say about Nardole. He seems to be helping the Doctor not to be alone, but I'll have to wait for the upcoming Series to be sure if he works as a Companion or not. Overall it is a good episode, but far from the best. 8/10.

 

[Christopher]

There's not much to say about Nardole. He seems to be helping the Doctor not to be alone, but I'll have to wait for the upcoming Series to be sure if he works as a Companion or not. Overall it is a good episode, but far from the best. 8/10.

I think what I read somewhere is that Nardole is more the Doctor's valet than his companion in the usual sense. So not a friend or protegee so much as an employee. The Doctor's never really had that before.