What happens to other countries on Earth?
- Thread starter Gingerbread Demon
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It's always been simple to me.
There is a Government of Earth that no doubt makes decision on a planetary scale. Then things just trickle down from there. [Probably continental government - EU etc - then national, then local etc] it is just one huge pyramid. I love this notion.
One thing I would highlight is by that point in time their concept of 'country' would be radically different to ours. With garbage like nationalism dead, with no real borders anymore, the world would be an entirely different [entirely better] place. 'Nations' likely just cover a governmental role over a geographical area...they won't be the autonomous mess we have today. I have posted here before that many are a product of their time and find these notions hard to fathom: we cannot apply our concepts of today on the future.
The EU is vastly, vastly different from what a United Earth would be like: they aren't comaprable. Earth in the 24th century cannot have borders between nations [at the very least, not in the sense we have now] so while some cultural differences will still exist, Earth would likely be far, far more...'fluid' in its differences. Your assertion that "the French are still French and the English still English" is very vague. In a world where there are no 3rd world countries, where we can all transport about freely and live anywhere we wish such nationalistic claims start to become somewhat meaningless. How England would be in 2470 is utterly impossible to predict in the ST universe [likewise France and every other nation].
The nation state, in the historical sense, must be dead in ST.
There is a Government of Earth that no doubt makes decision on a planetary scale. Then things just trickle down from there. [Probably continental government - EU etc - then national, then local etc] it is just one huge pyramid. I love this notion.
One thing I would highlight is by that point in time their concept of 'country' would be radically different to ours. With garbage like nationalism dead, with no real borders anymore, the world would be an entirely different [entirely better] place. 'Nations' likely just cover a governmental role over a geographical area...they won't be the autonomous mess we have today. I have posted here before that many are a product of their time and find these notions hard to fathom: we cannot apply our concepts of today on the future.
The EU is vastly, vastly different from what a United Earth would be like: they aren't comaprable. Earth in the 24th century cannot have borders between nations [at the very least, not in the sense we have now] so while some cultural differences will still exist, Earth would likely be far, far more...'fluid' in its differences. Your assertion that "the French are still French and the English still English" is very vague. In a world where there are no 3rd world countries, where we can all transport about freely and live anywhere we wish such nationalistic claims start to become somewhat meaningless. How England would be in 2470 is utterly impossible to predict in the ST universe [likewise France and every other nation].
The nation state, in the historical sense, must be dead in ST.
Something interesting that I find interesting is that for a large portion of human history nations were not defined by borders. They were defined by population centers. Stronger population centers would have more influence over weaker population centers. If we were to draw that today, instead of a map with borders, we would have cities with certain colors and other cities that are aligned with that major city would share the same color. It's only recently that we began drawing lines in the dirt and claiming it.
Perhaps future earth could operate in this way as well with population centers allying themselves together into larger and larger groups. So my town and some others agree on a common set of laws, we're grouped together by a common name, maybe the Group/County/State/District of Whatever. Then our group is also working together with more groups, together we are the Nation of (Insert name here). This nation would not defined by a geographical region, but by the population centers that agree to work together by common laws. Then groups of the nations are group together into Alliances?/Confederations?/Unions?. And finally all the Alliances are grouped together as the world government. Meh. i can see benefits and draw backs to this system. But in some ways it seems much more practical, than drawing arbitrary borders across vast stretched of dirt.
I can definitely see star systems working like this. Instead of having defined borders in space(which, yes, I know Star Trek has) you would have star systems aligned with others. A map composed of dots rather than polygons.
Perhaps future earth could operate in this way as well with population centers allying themselves together into larger and larger groups. So my town and some others agree on a common set of laws, we're grouped together by a common name, maybe the Group/County/State/District of Whatever. Then our group is also working together with more groups, together we are the Nation of (Insert name here). This nation would not defined by a geographical region, but by the population centers that agree to work together by common laws. Then groups of the nations are group together into Alliances?/Confederations?/Unions?. And finally all the Alliances are grouped together as the world government. Meh. i can see benefits and draw backs to this system. But in some ways it seems much more practical, than drawing arbitrary borders across vast stretched of dirt.
I can definitely see star systems working like this. Instead of having defined borders in space(which, yes, I know Star Trek has) you would have star systems aligned with others. A map composed of dots rather than polygons.
For the sake of argument:
Person One (Federation alien): Where are you from, Earther?
Person Two: Minneapolis, North American continent.
Person One: Are you of American descent?
Person Two: Well, Minneapolis sits in an area that used to be called Minnesota, what was a state in the United States.
Person One: United States?
Person Two: A political union of fifty-two so-called "states" organized as a democratic republic.
Person One: Like the United Earth?
Person Two: Well, in the sense of a democratic union, but United Earth is more of an alliance of humanity as a whole. We've overcome nationalistic tendencies and prejudices. But for the sake of clarifying who we are, and where we're from, the old names are still used. My great-great grandfather still keeps a flag of the United States. Sentimental, I guess.
That's how a conversation would/should go in the 23rd/24th (Star Trek) century.
Person One (Federation alien): Where are you from, Earther?
Person Two: Minneapolis, North American continent.
Person One: Are you of American descent?
Person Two: Well, Minneapolis sits in an area that used to be called Minnesota, what was a state in the United States.
Person One: United States?
Person Two: A political union of fifty-two so-called "states" organized as a democratic republic.
Person One: Like the United Earth?
Person Two: Well, in the sense of a democratic union, but United Earth is more of an alliance of humanity as a whole. We've overcome nationalistic tendencies and prejudices. But for the sake of clarifying who we are, and where we're from, the old names are still used. My great-great grandfather still keeps a flag of the United States. Sentimental, I guess.
That's how a conversation would/should go in the 23rd/24th (Star Trek) century.
I know this is a little off topic but I wonder what it would be like in this hypothetical 23rd/24th century Earth for groups that wanted to continue to live like that had for centuries. But they are not hurting anyone else by doing it.
In the Voyager episode Tatoo, we see Chakotay and his father interacting with a native tribe in South or Central America. Living with their traditional customs.
In the Voyager episode Tatoo, we see Chakotay and his father interacting with a native tribe in South or Central America. Living with their traditional customs.
Are those customs nationalistic or prejudicial? Or simply heritage?
They are hiding, waiting for the neo-facists to start running the world in January.
They may be 'dead' as we know it in our real world situation but cultural heritage and 'pride' will still exist. Chekov is not a fake Russian, he is Russian and is very and rightly proud of it. Uhura despite being played by Americans is meant to have an East African voice, the character Scotty is an identifiable Scott. I think Kyle is meant to be English, only Picard's 'Frenchness' is poorly identified due to the choice of actor. Unless Yorkshire takes over the region. McCoy is proud of his Southern roots or comes across as if he is and why not? O'Brian does not stop being Irish cos he plays fake British soldier with English Bashir in a holosuite programme.
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But would we see those types of cultural differences amongest a crew of say Vulcans, would a human from Earth onboard a ship mostly of vulcans play up his human heritage or specific region they come from on Earth?
But would we see those types of cultural differences amongest a crew of say Vulcans, would a human from Earth onboard a ship mostly of vulcans play up his human heritage or specific region they come from on Earth?
Good luck with that. What would be the common ground upon which you could unite all of humanity? What would be the body of laws that you could get all of humanity to agree upon? Because people still need to be allowed freedom to live as they choose, yet still be united with groups that differ from them. If some outside force came in and forced you to give up some essential element of your culture, you can bet there would be blow back. So there must be some way of preserving group identities, while also working together. I think that this can only happen by allowing most of the law making decisions to be had on the city/community level. That means there will be areas on the planet with vastly different local laws. Maybe in one location Catholicism is the required belief system, while in another atheism is. Maybe some ares don't have a required belief system. Maybe some groups participate in endocannibalism, while for others it is illegal.
the problem we have today is that we have these large population centers which are required to legislate for people of wildly different belief systems. As I mentioned before, in this case either one group subjugates the other, or neither is happy. A better solution would be to allow people of like beliefs to group together and be governed by their own body of laws
And they would be able to do that.
I can see it happening then cos it happens now. There are Tribes in South America who as far as they are concerned the year 2016 might as well be the year 1816.
And when did Scotty ever refer to himself as "British?"
In the novel-verse, the planet Vulcan is a confederacy.
Many members of the current United Nations fight frequently.
Yet Kirk did call the Federation an alliance.
In ENT,the time traveler Daniels called the 25th century Federation an alliance.
And which of the federation presidents that we've seen would you call "strong?"
In the 24th century, the president is elected, but it's never stated by whom.
Could be all three, but if they want to be left alone are not hurting anyone. Why not?
Who said he was British?
We would if the writers create some world building for Vulcans, or maybe a race like Vulcans are the exception. Some planets might still have nation states and national pride and some planets might have no nations states and have slight regional differences. IDIC is meant to be a Surakian belief system.
In the real world a bunch of British folks overseas put aside any regional differences and all play up their British identity. However back in the UK, Londoners v the rest of the nation plays out. When I am holiday people don't hear London female they hear English female. In the ST universe a human on USS Solkar the Vulcan crew won't see Uhura of Kenya but Uhura of Earth. If there were 20 humans from different parts of Africa, Uhura of Kenya might come out more than Uhura of Earth.
In this universe, at this time, no argument.
But in the ST universe, "something" triggers a united Earth.
"United with groups that differ" yet still celebrate and embrace the differences, rather than react negatively, savagely.
What's the "something"?
Aliens (canon) and a war that kills most of humanity (fanon)
You see, your post is emphasising my point. Those are all Hollywood stereotypes of a 60's tv show. Your claim that Scotty is an unidentifiable 'Scot' [one 'T' not two] is laughable: I can assure you we aren't whiskey swigging, jolly, drunks - to claim he is an 'identifiable Scot' [when played by a Canadian in a cliche role] is half amusing and half derogatory. What you are pandering to is a pitiful stereotype. Picard also doesn't fit your argument in the slightest: he is French, with a British accent etc. He is actually more indicative of what a future 'Frenchman' may be like [instead of a cliche'd mess].
I struggle to follow much of your post also [I dislike the 'person from nation X and proud of it!' thing, which to me is silly nationalism] because O'Brien in many ways isn't your typical Irishman, Bashir is not racially stereotyped [which would have been easy with the actor playing him], La Forge is Somalian...and speaks with an American accent and barely mentions the country. Dr Crusher apparently has Scottish ancestry and was born on the moon.
As a museologist, cultural heritage is a tricky thing. It changes along with the world and with what people feel a part of. On 24th century Earth it is difficult to ascertain exactly what one person may feel is their heritage over another: is it regional? [many people are proud of the custom/history of their VILLAGE never mind city/region] It could even be global: it is very easy to assume there would be an 'Earth heritage' in comparison to say, a Vulcan heritage. People frequently define themselves through their heritage so much of that will still exist to an extent, but there will be a great ammount of new heritage being created that we simply do not have at the moment. Nationalistic pride, as you keep referencing, I suspect will be largely dead as most would view themselves as 'Human' or 'from Earth' rather than somthing silly like 'American/Scottish/Mongolian'.
While the whole WWIII/First Contact thing is presented as that something. I would like to see it depicted that humanity could have accomplished this all on our own, it's just the WWIII/First Contact gave us a kick in the pants.
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