Spoilers The Flash - Season 3

[Kahless the Unforgettable]

Barry murdered Diggle's daughter.

But gave him a son. (It's amazing how they keep glossing over that part; if he "fixes" it, then he'll be murdering his son instead. A daughter he's never met and has no connection to, versus a son he's known the boy's entire life, too.)

Barry murdered Cisco's brother.

And let's not tell him the rest o the story about his brother, either...

Barry broke Caitlin's soul and mind.

We have no idea if that is true or not. She's been keeping it hidden since the explosion in the new timeline, so there's no reason to believe she hadn't been doing the same in the original.

Barry is a dick.

No argument.

Cisco has worked side by side with the (very evil) Reverse Flash.

He's a professional, who stays on task until the job is done.

But he's still whiny as fuck.

 

[Christopher]

Wow. I enjoyed that so much that as soon as it was over, I went back to the beginning and started to watch it again.

I'm waiting until I have all four episodes (well, the prelude and all three episodes) on DVR, then I'm gonna rewatch them straight through.

I agree the bit with the president was kind of confusing, especially since Supergirl didn't even seem to try to save him (a shot that wasn't even necessary to begin with, since they were all going to be mind controlled seconds later anyway).

Indeed, her passivity there is what led me to wonder if she'd realized the "President" was an illusion. I really hope that's what was going on there.

I also have to say that while Oliver was a bit more eloquent and reasonable sounding in his attempt to convince Barry that all this stuff isn't his fault, that logic is still ridiculous.

I find it interesting to watch Stephen Amell's performance when he's playing off Grant Gustin. Oliver seems different with Barry than he is with most others. He's more self-assured and authoritative, but also more calm and understanding. It's like having Barry to react to as a friend and equal helps him be the best version of himself. Which I imagine is kind of like how Batman would be when he's with Superman.

And on the other side of that issue, Sarah (or any of the legends, actually) trying to read Barry the riot act for changing history is just unbelievably hypocritical.

Not at all. We learn from our mistakes, and the Legends have made plenty, so Sara knows whereof she speaks. And what was at issue here was specifically chaning history for personal gain. The Legends have made mistakes in their efforts to protect history, but Sara has learned that trying to deliberately change history for her own self-interest is irresponsible and dangerous. I didn't hear her words as "How dare you attempt something that I would never have done," but "I've been where you are and I know from experience how bad it is and how important it is to learn better."

 

[Finn]

But gave him a son. (It's amazing how they keep glossing over that part; if he "fixes" it, then he'll be murdering his son instead. A daughter he's never met and has no connection to, versus a son he's known the boy's entire life, too.)

Not to mention there is no guarantee it'd be the same girl if they decide to fix it again.

 

[dahj]

Starlabs owns the Hall of Justice!!!!

That's a really elaborate entrance to what is basically just a big hangar...

I think their FX budget was upped for this episode, it just seemed better over all.

Yep, the fighting was great, as was the Supergirl chasing Flash sequence.

Wow. I enjoyed that so much that as soon as it was over, I went back to the beginning and started to watch it again.

I'm resisting the rewatch till all 3 crossover episodes are here so I can watch them in one sitting

Fun enough that I have, despite myself, been convinced to brave the lion's den of watching Arrow again.

For what it's worth, Arrow has been great so far this season...

I am really, really, really sick of Angry Emo Cisco. Ugh.

I'm hoping he's hit peak angst, so he either forgives Barry soon, or goes full bad so that the Killer Frost vs Vibe fight turns out to be actually Good Caitlin vs Bad Cisco... and then goes back to being Good Cisco again.

 

[Christopher]

There should've been a reaction shot on Sara when they revealed that Baby Sara had changed to Baby John. After all, the kid was named in her honor. I mean, I can understand the choice to focus on Diggle at that moment, but it would've been nice to get a glimpse of her reaction too.

 

[Romulan_spy]

Not at all. We learn from our mistakes, and the Legends have made plenty, so Sara knows whereof she speaks. And what was at issue here was specifically changing history for personal gain. The Legends have made mistakes in their efforts to protect history, but Sara has learned that trying to deliberately change history for her own self-interest is irresponsible and dangerous. I didn't hear her words as "How dare you attempt something that I would never have done," but "I've been where you are and I know from experience how bad it is and how important it is to learn better."

I would argue that Barry is still inexperienced with time travel. He is gradually learning though. Which is why I think it is unfair for the people who learned by making mistakes to lecture the newbie that he is not allowed to ever make mistakes.

 

[Guy Gardener]

And that versions of themselves agreed to let him do it, encouraged him to rewrite and time line, high fived, and then facilitated his journey.

 

[Kahless the Unforgettable]

I would argue that Barry is still inexperienced with time travel. He is gradually learning though. Which is why I think it is unfair for the people who learned by making mistakes to lecture the newbie that he is not allowed to ever make mistakes.

That's standard operating procedure for the writers on all of these shows, though. Hypocrisy is the one, single theme you can find in every single one of the shows.

 

[Christopher]

Which is why I think it is unfair for the people who learned by making mistakes to lecture the newbie that he is not allowed to ever make mistakes.

See, that's the problem with society today -- we see criticism as a personal attack rather than a learning opportunity. There is no shame in making a mistake -- only in refusing to learn from it. It's only by accepting criticism that we can learn and grow, and those people who've made the same mistakes are people we can learn from if we're willing to hear their stories. Sara was not attacking Barry or trying to diminish him; she was trying to help him by offering her own insights with the same problem. Because that's what real friends do -- they confront you frankly about your mistakes so you can fix them before they do you further harm.

 

[DarthPipes]

Last night's episode was a ridiculous amount of fun. Yeah, it was a little unwieldy at times and they had to stretch their FX budget to the breaking point but I was very entertained by the end of the show.

I agree that being around Grant Gustin brings out the best in Amell. His speech to Barry about his parents was great.

One of the reasons crossovers like this work is because of the interactions. We got to revisit some old character friendships, like Cisco and Ray, Cisco and Felicity and Caitlin and Martin (everything involving that last one was particularly great). But they you get the unexpected entertaining pairings as well like Supergirl and Heatwave. Only DP could make me laugh at the "I burned my whole family alive" line.

Diggle's everyman reactions continue to be entertaining as well.

Some gripes...

-Good lord, is Wally an annoying little crybaby. No wonder no one wants to train him though his pairing with HR could be very intriguing.

-I love Sara but she's the last person who should talk about not altering the timeline. She spent about six months trying to alter the timeline to save her sister by plotting to kill Damian Dahrk and only stopped because she was talked down by her friends. If she had acknowledged this, her speech would have rang true and been a damning indictment of Barry's enablers, er friends!

-The worst part about last night's episode was Cisco. Good lord, what an asshole! I don't blame him for being mad at Barry about Flashpoint but there's an alien invasion to deal with. That is the first and only priority but Cisco decided his selfish and self-absorbed issues with Barry were more important. Now it worked out in the end as it kept Oliver and Barry out of the fight but Cisco deliberately sabotaged the team by putting his petulant and passive aggressive issues with Barry first.

Cisco is now upset that Barry used his powers to create Flashpoint but he wanted Barry to use his powers to save his brother. You can't have it both ways, Cisco.

Speaking of which, I can't believe I'm going to say this but fuck Cisco and his brother. Cisco HATED his brother most of the time and now Dante is a saint to him. Cisco has truly become Livia Soprano, a woman who helped nag her husband to death and then made him a saint afterwards. Mopey, petulant, passive-aggressive Cisco is NOT a fun Cisco, show.

Issues aside, can't wait until tonight's episode!

 

[Guy Gardener]

Urban myth is that at trinity, that there was a %30 percent chance that the first bomb was going to burn off the planets atmosphere, and Oppenheimer said "Fuck it, we've come this far... "

 

[Christopher]

-I love Sara but she's the last person who should talk about not altering the timeline. She spent about six months trying to alter the timeline to save her sister by plotting to kill Damian Dahrk and only stopped because she was talked down by her friends. If she had acknowledged this, her speech would have rang true and been a damning indictment of Barry's enablers, er friends!

She did acknowledge it, didn't she? She didn't say she was perfect, she said she'd learned from experience that it was a bad idea to change time for personal gain. At least, that's how I recall it.

-The worst part about last night's episode was Cisco. Good lord, what an asshole! I don't blame him for being mad at Barry about Flashpoint but there's an alien invasion to deal with. That is the first and only priority but Cisco decided his selfish and self-absorbed issues with Barry were more important. Now it worked out in the end as it kept Oliver and Barry out of the fight but Cisco deliberately sabotaged the team by putting his petulant and passive aggressive issues with Barry first.

To be fair, Cisco did set aside his personal concerns to work with Barry at first, as he said before they made the dimension jump to National City. But then he listened to the message from Future Barry, in which Future Barry specifically said that he should not be trusted. It was only then that Cisco decided the others needed to know. Which is arguably a reasonable point of view. If you're going into danger, and you hear a future version of your team leader saying outright that he can't be trusted, it's probably a good idea to let the team know that. If they're following a leader who can't be relied on, that could endanger the whole mission.

Which is not to say that I agree with Cisco. Future Barry's "I can't be trusted" warning is just a manifestation of his own self-doubt and guilt, and Cisco might have seen that if he weren't blinded by his pain. But I can understand why he believed that what he did was necessary for the good of the team.

 

[LJones41]

Barry broke Caitlin's soul and mind.

No. Caitlin did that all on her own, because she continues to stupidly associate her powers with evil and does not bother to consider that her own personal issues and insecurities might be the real problem. She never stopped to remember that Earth 2 Cisco was also evil. Yet, she never automatically assumed that Earth 1 Cisco would become evil once he finally acquired his powers.

She has a personal problem that someone needs to point out or she needs to acknowledge before her insecurity brings out Killer Frost again.


By the way, I noticed that the future newspaper article hinted that Barry and Iris might not get married. I realize that a lot of fans would probably love the idea of their romance ending. But I'm not one of them and I find this disturbing.

 

[Morpheus 02]

Barry murdered Diggle's daughter.

But gave him a son. (It's amazing how they keep glossing over that part; if he "fixes" it, then he'll be murdering his son instead. A daughter he's never met and has no connection to, versus a son he's known the boy's entire life, too.)

Well, it's more like Barry made the baby transgender without the parents or child's permission.

There should've been a reaction shot on Sara when they revealed that Baby Sara had changed to Baby John. After all, the kid was named in her honor. I mean, I can understand the choice to focus on Diggle at that moment, but it would've been nice to get a glimpse of her reaction too.

That's true...but does Sara know the baby was named after her? I forget the timeline of Sara's resurrection, and how much she was, or was not, in the Arrow's characters' lives at that point.

See, that's the problem with society today -- we see criticism as a personal attack rather than a learning opportunity. There is no shame in making a mistake -- only in refusing to learn from it. It's only by accepting criticism that we can learn and grow, and those people who've made the same mistakes are people we can learn from if we're willing to hear their stories. Sara was not attacking Barry or trying to diminish him; she was trying to help him by offering her own insights with the same problem. Because that's what real friends do -- they confront you frankly about your mistakes so you can fix them before they do you further harm.

Gotta save this for future responses, friend.

 

[Romulan_spy]

See, that's the problem with society today -- we see criticism as a personal attack rather than a learning opportunity. There is no shame in making a mistake -- only in refusing to learn from it. It's only by accepting criticism that we can learn and grow, and those people who've made the same mistakes are people we can learn from if we're willing to hear their stories. Sara was not attacking Barry or trying to diminish him; she was trying to help him by offering her own insights with the same problem. Because that's what real friends do -- they confront you frankly about your mistakes so you can fix them before they do you further harm.

I don't disagree with you about friends giving constructive criticism. But I read the scene a bit differently. When the rest of the gang learn about flashpoint, they pretty much instantly turn against Barry. It just seemed like everyone, except Oliver and Supergirl, is judging Barry without trying to understand his perspective.

 

[Christopher]

By the way, I noticed that the future newspaper article hinted that Barry and Iris might not get married. I realize that a lot of fans would probably love the idea of their romance ending. But I'm not one of them and I find this disturbing.

I dunno, it's better if their relationship develops organically rather than because they expect it to be inevitable. Having things open-ended doesn't mean it has to end, just that it's more spontaneous.

Although, given the way things are done on these shows, they might well break Barry and Iris up anyway. Nobody seems to get to have a lasting relationship on these shows. Heck, I still regret that Ollie and Felicity broke up.

I don't disagree with you about friends giving constructive criticism. But I read the scene a bit differently. When the rest of the gang learn about flashpoint, they pretty much instantly turn against Barry. It just seemed like everyone, except Oliver and Supergirl, is judging Barry without trying to understand his perspective.

But that's what I'm saying -- I didn't see Sara's criticism as representing "turning against" him. I heard concern and disappointment in her voice, but not resentment or scorn. She wasn't taking it personally like Cisco or Diggle; she was doing her job as captain of the Waverider, asserting the principles she's sworn to uphold. But the fact that she'd made the same mistakes herself -- or nearly so -- tempered it. At least, that was how it seemed to me at the time.

 

[dahj]

It just seemed like everyone, except Oliver and Supergirl, is judging Barry without trying to understand his perspective.

Yep, people all to often jump immediately to criticism from their point of view without any attempt to understand the others point of view.

Also, it's not like Barry doesn't already know and admit he made a mistake and has to be made to realize it...

 

[Vendikarr]

By the way, I noticed that the future newspaper article hinted that Barry and Iris might not get married. I realize that a lot of fans would probably love the idea of their romance ending. But I'm not one of them and I find this disturbing.

In one iteration of the Flash, Iris was killed by the Reverse Flash, and that occurred before the Crisis. That is what I thought the change was about, not that they didn't get married. If that were the case, the article could have just been written by Iris West.

 

[Noname Given]

Starlabs owns the Hall of Justice!!!!

Yeah, I laughed out loud at the various 'homage' shots they did in the episode with that. Scary that anyone under 40 probably wouldn't understand the reference.

 

[dahj]

In one iteration of the Flash, Iris was killed by the Reverse Flash, and that occurred before the Crisis. That is what I thought the change was about, not that they didn't get married. If that were the case, the article could have just been written by Iris West.

That's what I thought they meant to imply as well.

Of course, could be that Iris gave up journalism altogether and took up costumed crime fighting as the Guardianess.