Why is there resistance to the idea of Starfleet being military?

[Captain of the USS Averof]

Ironically he has an empath for a counsellor, and he asks the android. Man, there are days where Picard just wasn't on the ball

As I recall, he was meeting with Data (and no one else) for other reasons, and asked him at the end of the meeting. So, less of Picard ignoring Troi and more of him asking the opinion of someone who was already there.

This scene ties in with the beginning of the episode where Data portrays King Henry V on the holodeck with the guidance of Picard. Data says that he has studied the performance of Laurence Olivier among others and Picard says that there isn't a better way to learn about the human condition than the works of William Shakespeare.

 

[DaddlerTheDalek]

I see Starfleet as a intergalactic successor of NASA & the military self defense force of the Federation.

 

[Kevman7987]

I see Starfleet as a intergalactic successor of NASA & the military self defense force of the Federation.

Is that it? Much like the Japanese Defense Force that existed since after WWII is not considered military.

 

[DaddlerTheDalek]

Is that it? Much like the Japanese Defense Force that existed since after WWII is not considered military.

Uh. What is the exact difference between a military and a defense force?

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

The Japanese Self-Defense Force is absolutely a military.

 

[Captain of the USS Averof]

Uh. What is the exact difference between a military and a defense force?

Exactly. None.

 

[Tenacity]

Much like the Japanese Defense Force that existed since after WWII is not considered military.

Just a piece of political fiction, Japan has the second largest military in the western Pacific.

 

[Nerys Myk]

I wonder if the Klingon Defense Force was a nod to that?

 

[J.T.B.]

So...a couple in the Pacific, another in the Indian ocean and one in the Atlantic/European seas or ready to deploy there quickly. That's a long winded way of agreeing with me.

The North Atlantic is not covered as it was in the Soviet days, and the same carrier in/outchops 5th and 6th Fleets, so for instance could not cover both Iraq and Libya. And "in every ocean" implies that they are at sea. So no, not agreeing.

He was a threat to international law. Letting him get away with annexation opens the door to the return of colonialism. THAT is what could lead to an existential threat to the West. Thinking a step ahead is not a bad thing, and is the crux of the OT here.

But the post you were replying to was talking about a military threat to a nation, not international law.

Right, because Iran, not Iraq. At the time the deployment schedule was in place, no one was expecting an annexation of Kuwait.

Not just because of Iran, but because the Iran-Iraq war had destabilized the region. As I said, the problem emerged in a well-covered area. As a young sailor in Spain at the time I saw a lot of pertinent communications, and though keeping classified I can assure you that Iraq was neither trusted nor ignored, especially after the Stark, and the troop movements preparatory to the invasion were very much noticed and sent up all sorts of red flags.

Really? There isn't a literal, direct example of a fictional hive mind space empire? The hell you say.

Maybe, just maybe, you could take a step back and look at the numerous examples in history where either new technology or tactic completely overwhelmed nations that didn't even know they existed. You know, an analogy.

Any examples of that happening to a modern military organization (say, post-WW2), as I was talking about?

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

The Japanese Self-Defense Force is absolutely a military.

Not according to the Japanese.

Kinda like how Picard and others say Starfleet isn't a military IMO.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Not according to the Japanese.

Explain, please.

 

[Tenacity]

It like recently when the Japanese built a new aircraft carrier and labeled it a "destroyer" so they could claim they don't have aircraft carriers.

The Japanese military's 300,000 enlisted and officers are officially labeled "special government employees"

And their military (in the top ten most powerful in the world) is labeled a "self-defense force."

The Japanese are well aware that they have a military.

 

[DaddlerTheDalek]

Exactly. None.

I agree.

 

[The Wormhole]

I wonder if the Klingon Defense Force was a nod to that?

In my mind or "head canon" if you will, the Klingon Defense Force is named that because when their first space military service was established, that was its mandate, defend Qo'nos from the Hur'q and other alien threats which may exist. As time went on, they became more of an offensive military, aggressively so perhaps, but still kept the name since defense of Klingon territory does fall under their purview.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

And their military (in the top ten most powerful in the world) is labeled a "self-defense force."

Since military forces throughout the world exist for the purpose OF self-defense, why is this a problem?

 

[Lance]

Much like the Japanese Defense Force that existed since after WWII is not considered military.

I think we've got a winner here.

Just as Japan's 'defense force' is basically a polite way to have a military while proposing (for political and constitutional reasons) that you do not have one, so too is Starfleet likely a military-in-all-but-name, to appease those galactic societies that may find the Federation's reach a little scary. Saying they aren't military is a propaganda job as much as anything.

So. Starfleet is a military. But not officially.

 

[Ithekro]

Since military forces throughout the world exist for the purpose OF self-defense, why is this a problem?

The Japanese Constitution does not allow Japan to have at offensive military forces.

CHAPTER II

RENUNCIATION OF WAR

Article 9. Aspiring sincerely to an international peace based on justice and order, the Japanese people forever renounce war as a sovereign right of the nation and the threat or use of force as means of settling international disputes.
In order to accomplish the aim of the preceding paragraph, land, sea, and air forces, as well as other war potential, will never be maintained. The right of belligerency of the state will not be recognized.

Hence they have a self-defense force that at least the last I checked didn't carry anti-ship missiles, and the majority of it was designed with anti-submarine warfare and anti-aircraft/anti-missile combat in mind.

 

[Captain of the USS Averof]

The Japanese Constitution does not allow Japan to have at offensive military forces.

Here is a Japanese "non offensive" Helicopter Carrier.

Here is a Japanese "non offensive" Guided Missile Destroyer.

Here is a Japanese "non offensive" Attack Submarine.

Here is a Japanese "non offensive" Main Battle Tank.

Here is a Japanese "non offensive" Air-Superiority Fighter.

Here is a Japanese "non offensive" Multirole Fighter.

They look pretty indistinguishable from the "offensive" capable types to me!

Furthermore, the Japan Maritime Self-Defense Force has has a fleet of 154 ships including 4 helicopter carriers (called helicopter destroyers), 26 destroyers, 11 small destroyers (or frigates), 6 destroyer escorts (or corvettes), 18 attack submarines, 29 mine countermeasure vessels, 6 patrol vessels, 3 tank landing ships, 8 training vessels and a fleet of various auxiliary ships.

Imagine how much more they would have if their constitution allowed them to have a "Military" Navy!!!

Hence they have a self-defense force that at least the last I checked didn't carry anti-ship missiles

Of course they carry them. All three versions of them. They carry the RGM-84 Harpoon anti-ship missile in their guided missile destroyers, they carry the AGM-84 Harpoon anti-ship missile in their aircraft and they carry the UGM-84 Harpoon anti-ship missile in their submarines.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harpoon_(missile)

 

[J.T.B.]

One way Starfleet is more "military" is that the Japan SDF does not have a separate system of military law, so no courts-martial. Thought changing that is being debated.

 

[Jetboogieman]

Admittedly, I'm conflating things a bit. In the episode Prey she talks about doing ground combat duty in the conflict with the Cardassians. I'm assuming that meant she was with the infantry.

What I mean is, it would appear for command staff, they are trained in the nuances of diplomacy and protocols, especially first contact.

I would imagine the diplomatic corp actually has quite a job within Federation territory itself.