The only source I believe are the voices in my head...
Why is there resistance to the idea of Starfleet being military?
- Thread starter The Wormhole
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Given your amazing predictive powers vis-a-vis DSC casting, I think your voices are pretty ironclad.
No, memory alpha is a wiki, the articles are written by the staff and by trek fans, the articles are a combination of on-screen information and the interpetation of that information by the person writing the article.
Some articles are little more than fan fiction.
That's quite an exaggeration.
EDIT: And frankly, when debating the content of canon or in-universe or whatever, we're all interpreting that information too. The question is about where that information is pulled from, not how it's interpreted.
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I notice that some of the info in memory alpha are cited along with its source material. Other info are written without a source.
By the way, it always takes my computer a long time to download the memory alpha webpage. And I almost always get a "webpage not responding" message before the webpage eventually downloads. Does anyone else encounter this issue with that webpage?
Like any wiki it's a constant work in progress and people are encouraged to contribute footnotes and such.I notice that some of the info in memory alpha are cited along with its source material. Other info are written without a source.
By the way, it always takes my computer a long time to download the memory alpha webpage. And I almost always get a "webpage not responding" message before the webpage eventually downloads. Does anyone else encounter this issue with that webpage?
And yeah, can't deny the website is kinda buggy. Some days are better than others it seems.
My take on the above is that Paris is (somewhat snarkily) pointing out that combat performance was prioritized over musical performance (which makes sense, even if Harry (briefly) doesn't think so), it doesn't say anything about it's performance/optimisation for exploratory purposes.
Maybe I'm reiterating but I think the resistance to the idea is it makes the characters look delusional or incompetent when they are extremely reluctant to or bitter about the idea of going into combat, maybe most notably Crusher in "Chain of Command" complaining that a mission *might lead to there being casualties*.
But if Starfleet was the military the characters would presumably spend a lot more time if not most of their time maintaining and improving combat and tactical skills, at least doing so would occur often and routinely rather than as a rare reaction to major threats.
But if Starfleet was the military the characters would presumably spend a lot more time if not most of their time maintaining and improving combat and tactical skills, at least doing so would occur often and routinely rather than as a rare reaction to major threats.
Another example of writing that tries to walk both sides of the line. Compare to "Balance of Terror," when the ship is all-business as it goes into combat, like a well-drilled ship would be, and Kirk, though sorry about the casualties, strides the deck at the end without regret, knowing he and his ship did their duty.
Well, a lot of the routine drills and exercise of the crew are not shown. I have to assume that kind of skill-sharpening does take place, though. The alternative is that Starfleet trusts battle leadership to people who lack experience and expertise in that field. Whichever is more believable to you.
What makes you think the real world military doesn't have the same kind reaction? You think most, if not all, soldiers think state-sanctioned murder (which is what combat is, and the military does *not* shy away from that truth) is the solution to every problem? Even if one has no moral qualms about killing, combat itself is chaotic and risky. You do not and *cannot* fully control the ongoings and consequences of violence.
That is why diplomacy is almost always preferred. You know what you're winning and losing at the negotiating table. Not so on the battlefield. Therefore, militaries spend more time *avoiding* conflict than actually engaging in it.
Exactly. J.T.B.'s post also kinda reminded me of "The Defector". Picard is contemplating entering the Romulan Neutral Zone (and thus starting a war with the Romulans) and asks Data about the crew's spirit, confessing that unlike King Henry, he cannot disguise himself and walk amongst his men before the battle. Later, when confronted by the Romulan warbirds, Tomalak asks Picard if he is willing to risk the lives of his crew for a lost cause, and Picard says if the cause is just and honorable, his crew will follow him. Pretty inspiring stuff actually!
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I think there is resistance to the idea of Starfleet being military because, to make it military would make it less unique.
We have a military in real life, we see action films, nationalistic Jingoist messages all the time, and Starfleet being non-military is something different and refreshing.
Considering all the ranks and their military capabilities it does seem like a natural fit to just say their military. But myself, I'd be inclined to stop being a fan of the franchise if they went that route. I like that Picard wanted to join Starfleet because he wanted to see the stars, explore the universe, and has an interest in archaeology. Most people I'd wager, that join the military (Army, Navy, etc) do it for reasons far different from what I've seen in ST: TNG.
I don't see any hard asses or people craving combat in TNG's Starfleet. They mostly seem like chill people who like exploring, advancing human knowledge, etc.
It wasn't until DS9 that I saw more a more military-like attitude from Starfleet, including the cadets. The cadets of Red Squadron idolized Sisko because he was on the "front lines."
We have a military in real life, we see action films, nationalistic Jingoist messages all the time, and Starfleet being non-military is something different and refreshing.
Considering all the ranks and their military capabilities it does seem like a natural fit to just say their military. But myself, I'd be inclined to stop being a fan of the franchise if they went that route. I like that Picard wanted to join Starfleet because he wanted to see the stars, explore the universe, and has an interest in archaeology. Most people I'd wager, that join the military (Army, Navy, etc) do it for reasons far different from what I've seen in ST: TNG.
I don't see any hard asses or people craving combat in TNG's Starfleet. They mostly seem like chill people who like exploring, advancing human knowledge, etc.
It wasn't until DS9 that I saw more a more military-like attitude from Starfleet, including the cadets. The cadets of Red Squadron idolized Sisko because he was on the "front lines."
No...they really don't. That's why the US military is so large, they need an aircraft carrier in every ocean, because they don't know when the next Saddam Hussein is going to violate international norms. They want a task force on station within a week when one crops up though.
1. There is not an aircraft carrier in every ocean. There is usually one at sea available for the Persian Gulf/Med, one in Japan, one other in the Pacific or Indian Ocean, two or three in port but quickly deployable, two or three in port but less quickly deployable, and three in maintenance and undeployable.
2. Saddam Hussein was not a military threat to the US or NATO.
3. The Persian Gulf region was well known as a global hotspot and was already a focus of US military attention, to put it mildly. The invasion of Kuwait began on August 2, Independence CVBG was in airstrike range of Iraq territory on Aug. 5, followed in a few days by Eisenhower.
4. All that aside, it is still not comparable to a threat of equal or superior military capability appearing without any warning at all, as in the example of the Borg.
Dude, look no further than TOS, The Corbomite Maneuver where the crew are engaged in repeated combat drills at the start of the episode. Granted, we don't see this sort of thing more often, but that's because the majority of Trek takes place when something is going on to occupy the crew's attention. Besides, even in today's militaries not everything is devoted to combat and tactics. Yes, when combat occurs, everyone is expected to contribute to it regardless what their job specialty is, and the same goes for Starfleet. But, those who do have non-combat and non-tactical jobs will spend the majority of their time doing those jobs. Granted, they do have to take proficiency tests on a regular basis with things like health physicals (which go on in Starfleet) and target practice on the shooting range, which again we see on Starfleet. In fact, TNG even showed the Enterprise's shooting range a couple of times, and even Guinan did some target practice.
"To see the world" is a reason many join the military today, and has been a reason throughout history as well. People can still join Starfleet to see the galaxy.
Besides, a small percentage of Starfleet actually goes out on missions of exploration, or rather deep space exploration into the unknown. During Enterprise in the 22nd century, only the NX class engaged in deep space exploration, and by the time the series ended we only knew of two of them existing, one of which was decommissioned in the finale. In the 23rd century, it was the Constitution class, of which there were only twelve. During TNG, it was just the Galaxy class, of which there were only six, although more were eventually built, but that was during wartime. The next closest thing which is still I suppose exploration would be the "sloppy seconds," the follow-up ships which do more in-depth analysis and charting of the new planets thed deep space explorers first go to, and from there there's a variety of duties ranging from border patrol, policing the space lanes, and whatever goes on on space stations and planetary bases.
I don't know, Captain Jellico had a military streak to him. Worf seemed more interested in combat than exploration. Shelby's background was Starfleet's tactical division, and Ro later took advanced tactical training. Data's XO on the Sutherland didn't seem too interested in "advancing human knowledge" given he was openly prejudiced against serving under an android. Captain Maxwell and Admiral Pressman certainly should be mentioned.
TOS is just as militaristic as DS9. Perhaps even more so, since at time of TOS they were allowed to treat Starfleet like a military and Roddenberry himself didn't mind. DS9 had to pay lip-service to military-hating Gene the Deity saying Starfleet isn't a military.
So...a couple in the Pacific, another in the Indian ocean and one in the Atlantic/European seas or ready to deploy there quickly. That's a long winded way of agreeing with me.
He was a threat to international law. Letting him get away with annexation opens the door to the return of colonialism. THAT is what could lead to an existential threat to the West. Thinking a step ahead is not a bad thing, and is the crux of the OT here.
Right, because Iran, not Iraq. At the time the deployment schedule was in place, no one was expecting an annexation of Kuwait.
Really? There isn't a literal, direct example of a fictional hive mind space empire? The hell you say.
Maybe, just maybe, you could take a step back and look at the numerous examples in history where either new technology or tactic completely overwhelmed nations that didn't even know they existed. You know, an analogy.
I've heard that too, but never met anyone that had that be their primary reason. Seems most like a bonus considering the other motivations involved. For example, if you're well off then more than likely you have the means to "see the world" without having to endure bootcamp, or risk combat situations. The chance to get an education via the GI Bill, or parlay it into some type of law enforcement career. Or simply to escape a poor/working class background/life.
Considering their is no currency in the future, or at least in the Federation, there goes the financial incentive. I'm assuming education is also free, so no need to endure a military life in order to go to college. Poverty is eliminated, so it wouldn't be to become upwardly mobile.
I don't know what kind of law enforcement exists on Federation Earth or its planets, so maybe that's a reason to join Starfleet.
However, the way Picard described wanting to join Starfleet makes it seem more like pure exploration, or at least focused primarily on exploration and scientific knowledge. The demeanor and characteristics of those on the TNG Enterprise are seem to contrast strongly with military groups I've encountered.
Considering that ENT isn't well-regarded I don't think that's a good example to support your argument.
I'll concede that because I don't know much about the details of the classes of star ships and their roles.
Good point. And there was that Captain who was a friend of Picard who went rogue against the Cardassians. The exchange he and Picard had felt more like military camaraderie.
I disagree here. Yeah, he was more willing to engage in combat than his peers, but he seemed very chill compared to the majority of other Klingons we encountered. I don't think he as interested in exploration either, and I've tried to figure out why he joined Starfleet in the first place. Since he kept up with his Klingon traditions while living on Galt, why not go back to Qo'nos and fulfill his warrior dreams in a better environment?
I think it's a combination of factors. 1) His adopted father was in Starfleet so maybe he wanted to honor that tradition, or he had it instilled in him 2) he saw Starfleet as an honorable organization considering that the outpost he and his family were on was aided by them, and he himself was rescued by them and 3) maybe he felt that being raised by human parents in the Federation would make him an outcast to some degree had he gone back to Qo'nos.
If I remember Shelby right, she definitely seemed more about military business than being a scientist or explorer.
There's a difference between advancing human knowledge, and putting the life of the crew in the hands of a machine that you're unsure of.
Good points.
Probably. I have only watched a handful of episodes of TOS.
Ironically he has an empath for a counsellor, and he asks the android. Man, there are days where Picard just wasn't on the ball
As I recall, he was meeting with Data (and no one else) for other reasons, and asked him at the end of the meeting. So, less of Picard ignoring Troi and more of him asking the opinion of someone who was already there.
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