Why is there resistance to the idea of Starfleet being military?

[Mr. Laser Beam]

@Balok's Decoy, the Defiant hadn't even been built when Wolf 359 took place. You're thinking of the First Contact battle scene.

The ship that survived Wolf 359 was the Endeavour. We know this because in an episode of Voyager, Janeway quoted the Endeavour's captain on his experiences with the Borg.

 

[Balok's Decoy]

But the Defiant wasn't at the battle of Wolf 359

Shit, I was thinking of Sector 001. IT'S BEEN A LONG DAY. lol

 

[Tenacity]

Admiral Hanson did say that "The Klingons are sending warships, (Hell, we've even thought about opening communications with the Romulans)" but apparently they didn't arrive in time.

That's why the fleet was almost completely destroyed, there weren't any "warships" there.

 

[WebLurker]

The Defiant. Because it was still being used in DS9.

[Edit: Replied to this before I realized it had been answered.]

The ship that survived Wolf 359 was the Endeavour. We know this because in an episode of Voyager, Janeway quoted the Endeavour's captain on his experiences with the Borg.

Not exactly. Janeway quotes the ship's captain in "Scorpion, Part I" (VOY), but she doesn't specify what engagement he had with the Borg or when it was. While the Encyclopedia points out that Wolf 390 is a very likely answer, that has never been confirmed or refuted in canon.

 

[Captain of the USS Averof]

I don't know if it is asked before, but what ship did survive the battle and why?

According to an interview with Michael Okuda:

"We [the production staff] did NOT come up with a definitive list of ships in the battle. I was tempted to try to develop one, but it occured to me that future episodes might need to "remember" a previously forgotten Wolf 359 ship for as-yet-unwritten storylines, just as the DS9 pilot did with Sisko's ship, the Saratoga."

For the same reason the 'lone survivor' ship remained unnamed.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Janeway quotes the ship's captain in "Scorpion, Part I" (VOY), but she doesn't specify what engagement he had with the Borg or when it was. While the Encyclopedia points out that Wolf 390 is a very likely answer, that has never been confirmed or refuted in canon.

Perhaps not, but the implication seems clear. At the time Janeway made that quote, there had been no major engagements with the Borg OTHER than Wolf 359, and (as per "The Drumhead") we know that one ship did survive the battle. So I think it's safe to assume that it was the Endeavour which was the survivor.

There's no evidence indicating any other ship, anyway.

 

[The Wormhole]

Don't other tie-in stick with the Endeavor being Wolf 359's sole survivor? I know the idea has some backing somewhere.

Shit, I was thinking of Sector 001. IT'S BEEN A LONG DAY. lol

The Defiant definitely wasn't the only survivor of the Sector 001 battle. We see multiple ships take fire upon the Borg ship with the Enterprise, and the Akira class USS Thunderchild flies by the exploding cube.

 

[Tenacity]

At the time Janeway made that quote, there had been no major engagements with the Borg OTHER than Wolf 359

Major engagement, but that doesn't preclude starships other than the Enterprise D doing combat with the Borg prior to Wolf 359. Things happen in the Trek universe other than what we see and hear about.

Picard speech in First Contact ("we fall back") does suggest that the Federation has a large ongoing problem with the Borg that is more than just what is depicted in TNG episodes.

***************

Janeway: " I've gone over every engagement, from the moment Q flung the Enterprise into the path of that first Cube to the massacre at Wolf 359 ...

.... Captain Amasov of the Endeavour. 'It is my opinion that the Borg are as close to pure evil as any race we've ever encountered."

Given the time period of Janeway's search, sounds there like Amasov's encounter with the Borg could easily be prior to Wolf 359.

 

[Spot261]

Major engagement, but that doesn't preclude starships other than the Enterprise D doing combat with the Borg prior to Wolf 359. Things happen in the Trek universe other than what we see and hear about.

Picard speech in First Contact ("we fall back") does suggest that the Federation has a large ongoing problem with the Borg that is more than just what is depicted in TNG episodes.

***************

Janeway: " I've gone over every engagement, from the moment Q flung the Enterprise into the path of that first Cube to the massacre at Wolf 359 ...

.... Captain Amasov of the Endeavour. 'It is my opinion that the Borg are as close to pure evil as any race we've ever encountered."

Given the time period of Janeway's search, sounds there like Amasov's encounter with the Borg could easily be prior to Wolf 359.

This. There's a small universe tendency to assume that nothing occurs other than that which we see on screen, but the ST universe is very large.

Yes only that shown on screen is canon but when canon sources clearly indicate other events it is hardly fan wank to assume such events occurred, albeit without us knowing the details. It's pretty clear that at the point of FC SF had had more contact with the Borg than the TNG encounters, at least a small plural number of them being on such a scale as to involve the assimilation of whole worlds.

My only concern with the pre 359 case is that in BOBW Picard seemingly shows surprise that the Borg had come so soon, suggesting that any engagements in that time frame were unknown to him and thus small enough to either escape notice or be kept quiet, even from SF personnel.

 

[dswynne1]

Starfleet, circa 24th century, is a paramilitary force, based on the definition of the word "paramilitary". The term is broad enough to encompass many things, including the type of structure it is. This question on whether or not Starfleet is a "military" organization is not that difficult to answer.

 

[The Wormhole]

Picard speech in First Contact ("we fall back") does suggest that the Federation has a large ongoing problem with the Borg that is more than just what is depicted in TNG episodes.

Or, you're just taking a quote too seriously that was likely hyperbolic and exaggerated.

Given the time period of Janeway's search, sounds there like Amasov's encounter with the Borg could easily be prior to Wolf 359.

The presence of the Borg near Federation space in TBOBW is a big deal, everything from the New Providence colony having a Borg signature to the USS Lalo being attacked by something "cube shaped" are massive red flags for Admiral Hansen and Shelby. You'd think that if another Starfleet ship had engaged the Borg at some point between Q Who and TBOBW and lived to tell of it, that would have been what would have lit a fire under Starfleet's ass rather than these incidents.

 

[Romulan Loyalist]

Or, you're just taking a quote too seriously that was likely hyperbolic and exaggerated.

The presence of the Borg near Federation space in TBOBW is a big deal, everything from the New Providence colony having a Borg signature to the USS Lalo being attacked by something "cube shaped" are massive red flags for Admiral Hansen and Shelby. You'd think that if another Starfleet ship had engaged the Borg at some point between Q Who and TBOBW and lived to tell of it, that would have been what would have lit a fire under Starfleet's ass rather than these incidents.

The idea of the Borg was much more fleshed out later in Trek... Trans Warp Conduits - negating the need for decades long journeys from the Delta Quadrant - (things that didn't even get mentioned until after TBOBW..

Falling back in First Contact - I have often thought about that as well.. The Enterprise had to fall back, after Locutus defeated their deflector burst - they had to fall back from every encounter via away missions as well... Wolf 359 was the first stand against the Borg - and we know how that went..

However, we have seen with the encounter of Voyager with Arturis that a Borg invasion is with multiple ships instead of just one.. So it is logical to think that there was more than one ship involved in the First Contact scenario although only the one in Sector 001 is the focus.. Picard even says that it is an 'Invasion of the Federation' - although one Borg cube seems to make little work of most everything Starfleet could throw at it. Anyone remember Seven of Nine saying that the Transwarp network allows instant deployment of multiple ships across the galaxy? (Perhaps if they had revived TNG to tell a long story arc - it could have detailed a war with the Borg actually invading the Federation... not just the one cube, and the convoluted Time travel plot.. although it seems the Borg, if played out to ultimate ends, would assimilate more of the known galaxy than it has...Technically)

The Endeavor issue - I am not sure... The Battle of Wolf 359 meant the loss of 39 starships - we know the Endeavor was not in the battle, but I imagine that Captain Amasov would have made a personal log entry about it... After all, it was something that undoubtedly shocked the entire Federation.

 

[The Wormhole]

However, we have seen with the encounter of Voyager with Arturis that a Borg invasion is with multiple ships instead of just one.. So it is logical to think that there was more than one ship involved in the First Contact scenario although only the one in Sector 001 is the focus..

No, dialogue states only one Borg ship was sent in First Contact, and this gets repeated a few times on Voyager as well.

The Endeavor issue - I am not sure... The Battle of Wolf 359 meant the loss of 39 starships - we know the Endeavor was not in the battle, but I imagine that Captain Amasov would have made a personal log entry about it... After all, it was something that undoubtedly shocked the entire Federation.

How do we know the Endeavor wasn't there? Forty ships were sent, 39 were lost, someone survived. And for all we know, Amasov's log Janeway was reading was about Wolf 359. Hell, whose better log to read than the captain who survived Wolf 359?

 

[Romulan Loyalist]

No, dialogue states only one Borg ship was sent in First Contact, and this gets repeated a few times on Voyager as well.

Yes that is true - you are right - Picard does tell the bridge crew that 'a Borg Cube' is headed to Earth...

How do we know the Endeavor wasn't there? Forty ships were sent, 39 were lost, someone survived. And for all we know, Amasov's log Janeway was reading was about Wolf 359. Hell, whose better log to read than the captain who survived Wolf 359?

Valid point - I had forgotten it was a total of 40 ships sent - and that 39 were destroyed. It is possible that the Endeavor was the only surviving ship - the names of all ships present in the battle is of course, never mentioned. There is also never an expansion on how many Klingon ships were at 359 - Admiral Hanson says that the Empire sent ships - how many is unknown, or if they even showed up. If Amasov survived 359 - then yes his log would be great to read, and now that I think about it - I doubt Janeway would have been reading it unless he WAS there.. So you actually may be right that he was there.

 

[The Wormhole]

Yes that is true - you are right - Picard does tell the bridge crew that 'a Borg Cube' is headed to Earth...

He's actually a lot more specific than that:

RIKER: How many ships?
PICARD: One, and it's on a direct course for Earth.

 

[Romulan Loyalist]

You would think after seeing that movie hundreds of times over the years I would remember that line -

 

[Ithekro]

We know of other incidents with the Borg both before and after Wolf 359. Before, in the Neutral Zone, several outposts were scooped up, just like what the Borg do. This suggests the Borg were at least in the area in 2364. After Wolf 359 the Enterprise has some near encounters with Borg scouts (3 of 5 was from one such ship). Also Lore's separated Borg drones in their transwarp ship had to have come from someplace.

 

[Captain of the USS Averof]

The Star Trek Encyclopedia states:
"The Endeavour appears to have been the sole survivor of the battle of Wolf 359, although this was not explicitly established in any episode. We know that the Endeavour was still around in 2373 because it was part of the armada that met the Borg in Star Trek: First Contact. Nevertheless, Amasov's first-hand experiences with the Borg (from which Janeway read in "Scorpion, Part I") had to have been recorded before the Voyager departed from Deep Space 9 in 2371, which was before the Borg battle in Star Trek: First Contact. It therefore seems likely that the Endeavour (and Amasov) were also at Wolf 359 in 2367."

 

[Tenacity]

^ But that last would be the interpretation of the person who wrote the entry in the Star Trek Encyclopedia. I'm not saying it's necessarily wrong, however there are other ways of looking at the canon evidence.

 

[Romulan Loyalist]

The Star Trek Encyclopedia states:
"The Endeavour appears to have been the sole survivor of the battle of Wolf 359, although this was not explicitly established in any episode. We know that the Endeavour was still around in 2373 because it was part of the armada that met the Borg in Star Trek: First Contact. Nevertheless, Amasov's first-hand experiences with the Borg (from which Janeway read in "Scorpion, Part I") had to have been recorded before the Voyager departed from Deep Space 9 in 2371, which was before the Borg battle in Star Trek: First Contact. It therefore seems likely that the Endeavour (and Amasov) were also at Wolf 359 in 2367."

That is the only information we have to support the theory -

^ But that last would be the interpretation of the person who wrote the entry in the Star Trek Encyclopedia. I'm not saying it's necessarily wrong, however there are other ways of looking at the canon evidence.

It is a little more than that - it is the Encyclopedic book written by Denise and Michael Okuda - who for decades were involved in every aspect of Trek... So it is not at all analogous to Wikipedia, or even Memory Alpha - which actually references Okuda's work as much as possible.