Why is there resistance to the idea of Starfleet being military?

[elamigodemiamiga]

it has a commander in chief, both political and functional (POTUS for US Navy, the QUeen in name, the PM/Cabinet in practice for the Royal Navy)

it has a naval command/rank structure.

it's organised in fleets, especially in war situations (Home Fleet WWI Royal Navy, Pacific Fleet WWII Allied navies)

it has weapons research, shipyards, a naval academy, enlisted training schools, military police, JAG, and marines/special forces (most navies have these too..)

It has capital ships, like the Enterprises, and ships of different purposes (destroyers, frigates, cruisers)

It has bases on planets (shore bases, like Portsmouth) and in space as HQs and/or stopovers.

It defends against threats, escorts dignitaries, and evacuates civilians.

Seems naval-esque to me.....lol.

 

[Cheapjack1]

Does it have a staff headquarters?

 

[Captain of the USS Averof]

Starfleet Headquarters.

 

[Nyotarules]

Starfleet Command, or Spacefleet Command, was the operating authority of Starfleet, the exploratory, scientific, and military department of United Earth before being integrated into the United Federation of Planets in 2161. The organization's primary management center was located at Starfleet Headquarters in San Francisco, Earth. (Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home; DS9: "Homefront", "Paradise Lost"; VOY: "Endgame")

What a civilian sounding organisation....not.

 

[Spot261]

What else is there to say? It's difficult to understand how anyone could really see SF as being anything other than military, but that's the point of the thread really.

 

[suarezguy]

What makes you think the real world military doesn't have the same kind reaction? You think most, if not all, soldiers think state-sanctioned murder (which is what combat is, and the military does *not* shy away from that truth) is the solution to every problem?

No, but I think it is accurate that most soldiers, at least in a well-funded army like the U.S.'s, do think that it's necessary more often than the general public does.

That is why diplomacy is almost always preferred.

But Kirk and Scotty, as part of thinking of themselves as soldiers and being from what a lot of fans regard as a relatively more militaristic era, do seem pretty contemptuous of diplomats and some or many fans do consider such complaining to be unprofessional and indicative that the characters or overall crew being incompetent or at least too undisciplined.

Captain Jellico had a military streak to him. Worf seemed more interested in combat than exploration. Shelby's background was Starfleet's tactical division, and Ro later took advanced tactical training. Data's XO on the Sutherland didn't seem too interested in "advancing human knowledge" given he was openly prejudiced against serving under an android. Captain Maxwell and Admiral Pressman certainly should be mentioned.

I would hope Maxwell, Pressman and the Sutherland XO were very much the exceptions (and it's pretty much stated that Maxwell and Pressman were as they were, when discovered, punished) but Jellico, Worf and Shelby, though more security-minded than some other characters, don't seem that militaristic, at least not to the point that they would see security and confrontation as the primary purpose of the whole Starfleet endeavor or things they love to do, more like that they concentrate on tactical security and combat-readiness somewhat reluctantly (although Worf the least reluctantly) and so that others wouldn't have to.

Edit again:

What else is there to say? It's difficult to understand how anyone could really see SF as being anything other than military, but that's the point of the thread really.

I don't like the idea of a lot of the characters being liars or that they believe in and spread propaganda. They may occasionally exaggerate or be euphemistic but the euphemisms would be pretty small and mild rather than massive ridiculous propaganda.

 

[The Wormhole]

I would hope Maxwell, Pressman and the Sutherland XO were very much the exceptions (and it's pretty much stated that Maxwell and Pressman were as they were, when discovered, punished) but Jellico, Worf and Shelby, though more security-minded than some other characters, don't seem that militaristic, at least not to the point that they would see security and confrontation as the primary purpose of the whole Starfleet endeavor or things they love to do, more like that they concentrate on tactical security and combat-readiness somewhat reluctantly (although Worf the least reluctantly) and so that others wouldn't have to.

What about Admiral Nechayev who actually chewed Picard out for not committing genocide against the Borg? Telling me that's someone dedicated to scientific pursuits over military ones?

 

[suarezguy]

What about Admiral Nechayev who actually chewed Picard out for not committing genocide against the Borg? Telling me that's someone dedicated to scientific pursuits over military ones?

Fair point. Although I don't think the Borg are a race or species, nor do they have free will and thus to at least some extent aren't individuals she was openly advocating not just defeating but destroying them en masse so some officers do have, and it's treated as respectable, much more militaristic perspectives although it's unclear which interpretation is more predominant (she saw the ultimate duty of Starfleet as protecting Federation lives, Picard thought implementing the plan would violate his oath) and I don't think the attitude would apply to other military threats.

 

[fireproof78]

I don't like the idea of a lot of the characters being liars or that they believe in and spread propaganda. They may occasionally exaggerate or be euphemistic but the euphemisms would be pretty small and mild rather than massive ridiculous propaganda.

Which, unfortunately, is a problem that will be run in to when there are various interpretations of what Starfleet is by various writers over the years. Not every member of the armed forces views it as a violent organization or that combat is even the norm. For some, it's just a job, working in an office on computers, with little to no chomping at the bit to rain down fiery death.

I think many Starfleet officers have an idealized view of the organization and how it all functions together in terms of the grand scheme of things. People like Kirk or Sisko feel a bit more pragmatic in that they have seen Starfleet at it's limits and when combat was what had to be done.

Picard might have started out that way, given the relative peace that the Federation was operating under before "Best of Both Worlds." I wonder if that perspective changed after the fact.

 

[Lance]

Picard thought implementing the plan would violate his oath).

Meanwhile.....

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

Accept third party cookies

Jean Luc Picard is a complete hypocrite.

Picard might have started out that way, given the relative peace that the Federation was operating under before "Best of Both Worlds." I wonder if that perspective changed after the fact.

Its curious that following BOBW, the Federation started making roads towards ending their 'war' with Cardassia. It seems that having so much of the Fleet decimated by the Borg seen them become a lot more enlightened now they weren't quite able to defend themselves as strongly.... only to become much more militarized after they got the Fleet back up to strength.

 

[WebLurker]

Meanwhile.....

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

Accept third party cookies

Jean Luc Picard is a complete hypocrite.

Exactly. That's the point of his story arc in that film; that's what he needs to overcome. (I will agree that "I, Borg" [TNG] did cover similar ground, but after such traumatic experience, it makes sense that a person could "backslide" or struggle with their issues later down the road.)

Its curious that following BOBW, the Federation started making roads towards ending their 'war' with Cardassia.

Interesting idea, I never made that connection (although the fact that Picard recalls that taking part in failed peace talks years earlier does suggest to me that the Federation had always been trying to end the conflict). (Good episode though.)

It seems that having so much of the Fleet decimated by the Borg seen them become a lot more enlightened now they weren't quite able to defend themselves as strongly....

I don't know about that. The Federation had historically preferred peaceful coexistence and has a track record of holding the same values they applied in "The Wounded" since their founding.

...only to become much more militarized after they got the Fleet back up to strength.

The Borg and Dominion declared war on them during that time. Of course they'd shift from exploration to combat. The same thing would've happened without the rebuilding after Wolf 390.

 

[fireproof78]

Its curious that following BOBW, the Federation started making roads towards ending their 'war' with Cardassia. It seems that having so much of the Fleet decimated by the Borg seen them become a lot more enlightened now they weren't quite able to defend themselves as strongly.... only to become much more militarized after they got the Fleet back up to strength.

It's interesting that the Federation didn't end up with more enemies after the Borg attack.

 

[MacLeod]

It's interesting that the Federation didn't end up with more enemies after the Borg attack.

Or that potential enemies realised that the UFP only just managed to defeat the Borg, if they could barely stop them what chance would we have. So from a self interest point of view why weaken the UFP even more, as you might be the subject of the next Borg attack and who are you most likely to call for help.

 

[Lance]

IIRC, don't the Klingons send ships to Wolf 359 as well? I don't know that we see the wreckage, but I do seem to recall dialog to that effect.

So the other galactic powers were definitely watching.

 

[USS Firefly]

There weren't shown Klingon debris on screen

 

[Ithekro]

True, but we do have Klingons as Borg later on.

 

[Captain of the USS Averof]

There weren't any Klingon ships in the battle of Wolf 359.

It was 40 Starfleet starships vs a single Borg cube. 39 UFP ships were destroyed and 11,000 killed.

Admiral Hanson did say that "The Klingons are sending warships, (Hell, we've even thought about opening communications with the Romulans)" but apparently they didn't arrive in time.

 

[USS Firefly]

I don't know if it is asked before, but what ship did survive the battle and why?

 

[Balok's Decoy]

I don't know if it is asked before, but what ship did survive the battle and why?

The Defiant. Because it was still being used in DS9.

 

[USS Firefly]

But the Defiant wasn't at the battle of Wolf 359