Jennifer Lien status
- Thread starter Drone
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I've read the transcript of that scene. It was intended for "Fair Trade," which takes place after "Warlord." Including it would have helped. But it still seems dumb to make the events of "Warlord" the catalyst for the breakup at all. Either, Kes was under the warlord's control until she wasn't, in which case, the experience shouldn't have affected her feelings for Neelix. Or else, the warlord influenced Kes' outlook and personality, which makes her character less likable.
This episode was one of the major stepping stones on the writers' path to changing Kes from a charming, likable character to a dark, whiny one I can do without. From "Cold Fire," to "Warlord," to "Darkling," to "Fury," there's an unpleasant trajectory.
This episode was one of the major stepping stones on the writers' path to changing Kes from a charming, likable character to a dark, whiny one I can do without. From "Cold Fire," to "Warlord," to "Darkling," to "Fury," there's an unpleasant trajectory.
There was a breakup scene in the resort program. I just figured she wasn't being controlled yet and it works for me.
I think the premise of the episode is that she's being controlled from the start, as soon as the previous host dies.
But the other alternative is that Kes is herself when she brushes off Neelix' company in favor of the warlord's megalomaniacal friends, which makes her an even worse character.
But the other alternative is that Kes is herself when she brushes off Neelix' company in favor of the warlord's megalomaniacal friends, which makes her an even worse character.
Kes & Neelix had pretty much petered out by the time Sacred Ground came around. There was some kind of opportunity in there to transcend their relationship, but it didn't happen. After that, what was there for "Warlords" to break up, really? There wasn't much between them, by that point ...
Kes had a threesome in Warlord.
Kes the virgin was fine with her Neelix relationship.
Kes had no faith in a fat old man like Neelix supplying the same sort of boom in her pants, so she moved on.
Kes the virgin was fine with her Neelix relationship.
Kes had no faith in a fat old man like Neelix supplying the same sort of boom in her pants, so she moved on.
I don't see any evidence of this. Kes wasn't even conscious for most of that episode.
As we can see at the end of "Warlord", Tieran takes immediate control over Ameron after leaving Kes's body so we can assume that Tieran took immediate control over Kes in sickbay at the beginning of the episode.
Therefore it's logical that Tieran was responsible for the break-up with Neelix as he saw Neelix as a potential obstruction for his plans.
I think that it was more than that. It was a downright spit in the face at the fans of the character.
Did anyone think Old Kes planned on banging Young Kes in Fury?
Despite what I said earlier about Neelix being too old for Kes, Old Kes in Fury was about right for Neelix, yes even with the old lady make up.
I seriously thought when old Kes was securing a free pass out of the Vidiian harvesting zone, that the two tickets were for her and young Neelix, or young Neelix and young Kes.
Weird.
Despite what I said earlier about Neelix being too old for Kes, Old Kes in Fury was about right for Neelix, yes even with the old lady make up.
I seriously thought when old Kes was securing a free pass out of the Vidiian harvesting zone, that the two tickets were for her and young Neelix, or young Neelix and young Kes.
Weird.
"Old Kes" was probably Suspiria or some evil entity from another reality. I don't know what that horrible, pathetic monster's plans were.
That whole episode was so morbid and sick that nothing in it makes sense. I would really like to look into the brains of those who could come up with such a disgusting scenario.
(Yes, I know you know, but I'm applying a special filter, to look at this shitstorm for a different angle.)
Kes blamed Kathryn and Voyager for turning her life to shit, even though it really wasn't explained how her life was shit, you know since she was a time travelling space god, who might have been immortal and no longer staring down the barrel of a nine year old life expectancy... But unfortunately discovered never ending life until just after her brains turned to rhubarb.
It's not that Kes was on a dotty ill conceived revenge kick, its really about how shit she was at smiting her "perceived" enemies, given how much raw power that Kes might have had at her disposal, and she didn't use because it was more satisfactory to let Vidiians butcher Voyager's crew.
Kes blamed Kathryn and Voyager for turning her life to shit, even though it really wasn't explained how her life was shit, you know since she was a time travelling space god, who might have been immortal and no longer staring down the barrel of a nine year old life expectancy... But unfortunately discovered never ending life until just after her brains turned to rhubarb.
It's not that Kes was on a dotty ill conceived revenge kick, its really about how shit she was at smiting her "perceived" enemies, given how much raw power that Kes might have had at her disposal, and she didn't use because it was more satisfactory to let Vidiians butcher Voyager's crew.
As one of those fans, I wholeheartedly agree.
SFDebris did a review of the episode and I think he hit the nail right on the head.
Yes, that's true, but as you know, Neelix was quite beside himself, for one thing. It could've had a lasting effect on how he viewed and treated her. Kes' predicament could've altered the course of her relationship with Neelix in a way that was meaningful and poignant. But, as you say, none of that's in the final thing, except that we're treated to Neelix whinging. I was referring mostly to a lost opportunity.
There is really no indication as to when the "warlord" takes control of her. She acts completely like herself until the scene in the transporter room.
If you look closely, there is a scene before the break-up with Neelix when Kes shows the two Ilaris the transporter room and Neelix hail her on the combadge. When she replies, she has a mean smile which she doesn't have usually. Add to this how fast Tieran's consciousness moved over to Ameron at the end of the episode and you see why I believe that Tieran was in full control over her when she broke up with Neelix.
I don't really agree. She was acting perfectly normal for herself. If he had taken over her personality would probably be different and someone would have noticed her acting strange. Her breakup conversation with Neelix in the holodeck was completely logical and made sense for Kes. If he was in control of her why bother with this at all? I think it was sometime after this that he took control of her. It makes the plot make more sense so that's what I'm going with.
As I wrote in a previous post, Tieran wanted to get rid of Neelix because he knew that Neelix was watching over Kes like a hawk and therefore could be an obstruction to his plans. By acting like a perfectly normal Kes, he could trick Neelix into the illusion that Kes herself had broken up with her. That would made Neelix hurt and he would probably go somewhere and sulk which would be perfect for Tieran's plans.
If he had behaved like Tieran while breaking up with Neelix, then Neelix and everyone els would have noticed that something was wrong with Kes and that could have obstructed Tieran's plans. That guy was no fool.
Note that he's actually playing his cards first when they are gathered in the transporter room to beam down the Ilaris. Then, for the first time since the takeover, he shows his real self by shooting the transporter chief and attacking Janeway.
I just don't believe that he would know how to act exactly like Kes so that nobody would notice
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