However, Chris Pine sort of look like a young Shatner.
TNG movie dislike?
- Thread starter retroenzo
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However, Chris Pine sort of look like a young Shatner.
Here's my take on the TNG movie era:
Generations
Probably my least favorite of the TNG movies although the one I have the most sentimental attachment to because it's the first Trek movie I saw in theaters. I just find the story weak and it the whole Kirk meeting Picard and the ensuing action was poorly executed. I don't blame Moore and Braga for this, Generations was given too many conditions by Paramount: Had to features members of the original cast but only for the first 15 mins with Kirk only coming back for the final act, Kirk/Picard had to meet but no time travel was allowed, they had to have a 'strong' villain and the had to use Klingon as bad guys. It was a movie that tried to be a big deep movie that dealt with death and loss but wasn't well executed.
First Contact
The best of the TNG era and probably one of the top three best Trek movies of the whole franchise. Like Wrath of Kahn, bringing direct elements from the TV show worked big time and gave the movie far more depth. This movie also utilized the TNG cast the best of the four movies with every character having at least one moment to shine.
Insurrection
My feeling about Insurrection have mellowed over the years and when I re-watched earlier this year for the first time in years, I was surprised at how much I enjoyed it. It's no great movie and wouldn't be in my top 5 best Trek movies, but I do think it pays tribute to the legacy of Star Trek more than the other TNG movies by trying to be more of a morality play. Unfortunately it suffers from a lackluster script and a story that wasn't well executed. The more whimsical tone perhaps wasn't the best choice after the success of First Contact. Allegedly a lot of that had to do with Patrick Stewart wanting to have a lighter movie in which he could have a romance. Pillar's original idea sounded slightly darker and more interesting than what was created.
Nemesis
Oh boy! First off I think this movie is just slightly overly criticized, it's not a great movie but better than Insurrection. I think Nemesis carries the full weight of the frustration and anger that fans felt towards Berman and Paramount about the state of the franchise at the time. I remember on these boards for months before the movie came out there was intense criticism of the film no had seen at that point. When I saw it opening weekend I was happy that it wasn't the pile of dung I was expecting it to be but once the box office figures came out, I knew this was the end of the TNG era and having grown up on the show I was disappointed this was their swan song. I saw the movie three times in some vain hope the box office would go back up. Watching Nemesis now years later it really does personify the state of the franchise in 2002. The whole movie seems tired, the cast seem tired, the direction seems tired, the writing seems tired - it just was not the movie TNG needed to try and revive a franchise in question. Although at the time I was just so happy to see the TNG cast on the screen again that I ignored the voice that said, we waited 4 years for this! I think there was a good story there but that the movie suffered from bad direction and too many cuts. According to Berman, about 45 minutes of the film was cut and the vast majority of them were character moments and more background on Schinzon which probably would have helped build his backstory more. John Logan rarely comments on this movie but I do remember an interview with him around the time Skyfall came out saying Nemesis was not the film he had set out to make...reading in between the lines you could see he was referring to push back from Rick Berman. I think they should have let Frakes direct again and they should have pushed back the release in order not to compete with Harry Potter, Lord of the Rings and Die Another Day.
Generations
Probably my least favorite of the TNG movies although the one I have the most sentimental attachment to because it's the first Trek movie I saw in theaters. I just find the story weak and it the whole Kirk meeting Picard and the ensuing action was poorly executed. I don't blame Moore and Braga for this, Generations was given too many conditions by Paramount: Had to features members of the original cast but only for the first 15 mins with Kirk only coming back for the final act, Kirk/Picard had to meet but no time travel was allowed, they had to have a 'strong' villain and the had to use Klingon as bad guys. It was a movie that tried to be a big deep movie that dealt with death and loss but wasn't well executed.
First Contact
The best of the TNG era and probably one of the top three best Trek movies of the whole franchise. Like Wrath of Kahn, bringing direct elements from the TV show worked big time and gave the movie far more depth. This movie also utilized the TNG cast the best of the four movies with every character having at least one moment to shine.
Insurrection
My feeling about Insurrection have mellowed over the years and when I re-watched earlier this year for the first time in years, I was surprised at how much I enjoyed it. It's no great movie and wouldn't be in my top 5 best Trek movies, but I do think it pays tribute to the legacy of Star Trek more than the other TNG movies by trying to be more of a morality play. Unfortunately it suffers from a lackluster script and a story that wasn't well executed. The more whimsical tone perhaps wasn't the best choice after the success of First Contact. Allegedly a lot of that had to do with Patrick Stewart wanting to have a lighter movie in which he could have a romance. Pillar's original idea sounded slightly darker and more interesting than what was created.
Nemesis
Oh boy! First off I think this movie is just slightly overly criticized, it's not a great movie but better than Insurrection. I think Nemesis carries the full weight of the frustration and anger that fans felt towards Berman and Paramount about the state of the franchise at the time. I remember on these boards for months before the movie came out there was intense criticism of the film no had seen at that point. When I saw it opening weekend I was happy that it wasn't the pile of dung I was expecting it to be but once the box office figures came out, I knew this was the end of the TNG era and having grown up on the show I was disappointed this was their swan song. I saw the movie three times in some vain hope the box office would go back up. Watching Nemesis now years later it really does personify the state of the franchise in 2002. The whole movie seems tired, the cast seem tired, the direction seems tired, the writing seems tired - it just was not the movie TNG needed to try and revive a franchise in question. Although at the time I was just so happy to see the TNG cast on the screen again that I ignored the voice that said, we waited 4 years for this! I think there was a good story there but that the movie suffered from bad direction and too many cuts. According to Berman, about 45 minutes of the film was cut and the vast majority of them were character moments and more background on Schinzon which probably would have helped build his backstory more. John Logan rarely comments on this movie but I do remember an interview with him around the time Skyfall came out saying Nemesis was not the film he had set out to make...reading in between the lines you could see he was referring to push back from Rick Berman. I think they should have let Frakes direct again and they should have pushed back the release in order not to compete with Harry Potter, Lord of the Rings and Die Another Day.
I have mixed feelings on Frakes directing NEMESIS, instead. On one hand, I know the movie would've flattered his costars and friends, to the best of his ability. On the other, had the movie bombed, it might've really hurt his career as a director. After INSURRECTION, Frakes' directorial assignments weren't quite up to snuff, like they were with FIRST CONTACT. Just one turkey in a director's résumé can mess them up, for Life.
Even Leonard Nimoy's career as a director went South after 3 Men and a Baby. He started taking on projects of lesser quality, not greater. Films worse than The Shat's STAR TREK 5, even. So, again, I know that Frakes would've handled NEMESIS so much better, even with the same problematic script. But the elements that Spiner and Stewart introduced and insisted upon would still be there, hampering Frakes' efforts. It probably worked out for the best, not having him helm the last outing, but the movie itself still needed a different and much better director.
Even Leonard Nimoy's career as a director went South after 3 Men and a Baby. He started taking on projects of lesser quality, not greater. Films worse than The Shat's STAR TREK 5, even. So, again, I know that Frakes would've handled NEMESIS so much better, even with the same problematic script. But the elements that Spiner and Stewart introduced and insisted upon would still be there, hampering Frakes' efforts. It probably worked out for the best, not having him helm the last outing, but the movie itself still needed a different and much better director.
I do think Frakes would've had a better instinct for the 'character' stuff in NEM. A lot of that movie's heart was ripped out of it in the editing room, not necessarily in the story outline. He'd still have needed to trim a lot of fat from the movie but I think the decisions he'd have made would've made the movie more.... I don't know if I'd use the word better. But it may have had more warmth than it did under Baird's direction.
Alas it's all hypothetical.
On the Insurrection DVD Frakes admits that they didn't have a good story for the movie as opposed to First Contact when they did. I would agree with that and defend Frakes' direction of Insurrection, I think it looks, sounds and feels like Star Trek. With that in mind, I can envisage a much better Nemesis because the story wasn't terrible it was just badly put together. A Frakes version, I think, would be now remembered much more fondly. It probably wouldn't have done bigger numbers than First Contact but it would've done better than it did.
I'm not sure I can forgive Mr Frakes for that damn Quickshot II joystick rising up out of the floor of the bridge in Insurrection, though
I'm not sure I can forgive Mr Frakes for that damn Quickshot II joystick rising up out of the floor of the bridge in Insurrection, though
I feel looking back on Nemesis that it was doomed to fail from the word go. Too much time had gone by since Insurrection, and it's not like Insurrection was a huge hit itself. Insurrection had a good opening weekend but ultimately did lukewarm box office. Franchise fatigue was a term that had entered the vernacular by the time Insurrection had come out so allegedly Paramount wanted to wait a while before doing another movie, and they were unsure if that movie should be another TNG movie or something different. The problem was that in the four year period many fans had gotten frustrated with the state fo the franchise (more on that in a bit) and as for the general audience, TNG while not forgotten was no longer in the mainstream like it had been.
John Logan is a fairly good writer, but Nemesis feels as though the story was stifled.I feel like Logan was trying to go for something more epic but that Berman may have kept the cage door closed on that. Logan clearly was trying to make TNG's Wrath of Khan but it ended up being a poor ripoff of it instead. Brent Spiner said at a convention years ago that Logan had written four drafts of Nemesis but from some reason Berman and Paramount chose one of the middle drafts rather than the more polished final draft. An early draft of the script had been leaked the summer before the movie came out and was met with a very negative response in the fandom which also played a role in the failure of Nemesis.
Stuart Baird was a terrible choice for director. The decision behind it was Paramount was trying to use Nemesis to relaunch the movie franchise and so the common feeling was instead of getting Frakes to direct again, they wanted fresh blood. Ridely Scott was seriously courted for the film but allegedly turned it down over disinterest in the story. Berman selected Baird based on his work on Executive Decision. The cast all hated working with Baird and I think that comes across on screen. BTW Baird has never directed a movie since Nemesis.
The release date of December 13, 2002 was another mistake. One of the reasons citied for Insurrection's lower than expected box office was its release date of December 11, 1998 which was viewed as being too close to Christmas and too much competition. Both Generations and First Contact came out before thanksgiving in November which allowed them to build more box office returns prior to the more competitive December. Nemesis was released between a 007, Lord of the Rings and Harry Potter movie. There was no way it could compete against huge franchises like that. Appearntly the December release date was decided because some executives at Paramount who though Nemesis could pick up business as a result of sold out showing of the other movies.
Finally, if you were around as a fan in 2002 you'll undoubtedly remember the huge amount of negatively and anger directed at Paramount and Berman over the handling of the franchise. The franchise was in decline and there was a consensus in the fandom that Berman and Paramount weren't doing enough to revitalize the franchise. Rather they were playing it safe and just doing what had been done before. A lot of fans just decided not to show up in protest. Berman had overstayed his welcome by this point and the majority of the fandom wanted him gone.
Ironically Nemesis did really good DVD sales btw, but it was such a box office bomb that the TNG era was dead. Nemesis had pretty much everything go against it: bad story, bad writing, bad directing, tired acting etc. A sad ending to the TNG era. Ok, that was a lot longer than I expected.
John Logan is a fairly good writer, but Nemesis feels as though the story was stifled.I feel like Logan was trying to go for something more epic but that Berman may have kept the cage door closed on that. Logan clearly was trying to make TNG's Wrath of Khan but it ended up being a poor ripoff of it instead. Brent Spiner said at a convention years ago that Logan had written four drafts of Nemesis but from some reason Berman and Paramount chose one of the middle drafts rather than the more polished final draft. An early draft of the script had been leaked the summer before the movie came out and was met with a very negative response in the fandom which also played a role in the failure of Nemesis.
Stuart Baird was a terrible choice for director. The decision behind it was Paramount was trying to use Nemesis to relaunch the movie franchise and so the common feeling was instead of getting Frakes to direct again, they wanted fresh blood. Ridely Scott was seriously courted for the film but allegedly turned it down over disinterest in the story. Berman selected Baird based on his work on Executive Decision. The cast all hated working with Baird and I think that comes across on screen. BTW Baird has never directed a movie since Nemesis.
The release date of December 13, 2002 was another mistake. One of the reasons citied for Insurrection's lower than expected box office was its release date of December 11, 1998 which was viewed as being too close to Christmas and too much competition. Both Generations and First Contact came out before thanksgiving in November which allowed them to build more box office returns prior to the more competitive December. Nemesis was released between a 007, Lord of the Rings and Harry Potter movie. There was no way it could compete against huge franchises like that. Appearntly the December release date was decided because some executives at Paramount who though Nemesis could pick up business as a result of sold out showing of the other movies.
Finally, if you were around as a fan in 2002 you'll undoubtedly remember the huge amount of negatively and anger directed at Paramount and Berman over the handling of the franchise. The franchise was in decline and there was a consensus in the fandom that Berman and Paramount weren't doing enough to revitalize the franchise. Rather they were playing it safe and just doing what had been done before. A lot of fans just decided not to show up in protest. Berman had overstayed his welcome by this point and the majority of the fandom wanted him gone.
Ironically Nemesis did really good DVD sales btw, but it was such a box office bomb that the TNG era was dead. Nemesis had pretty much everything go against it: bad story, bad writing, bad directing, tired acting etc. A sad ending to the TNG era. Ok, that was a lot longer than I expected.
My eyes got as big as saucers, when I got to the part where John Logan was "stifled" in his creativity in writing NEMESIS, by Rick Berman! Sir ... really, now.
We can agree to disagree on this point but if you watch John Logan's other work: Hugo, The Aviator, Skyfall, Spectre etc. he is a good writer. I'm not at all saying Logan doesn't deserve blame for the script or story but at the end of the day Berman was the Executive Producer and nothing would go ahead without his ok.
To be Frank & Ernest, John Logan's a connected screenwriter ... not a talented one. Our agreeing to disagree continues ... unabated.
Interesting thoughts.
I agree that on some level TNG had fallen out of the 'mainstream'..... ironic, given it had been a power-house at the time of it's TV finale, arguably more mainstream than TOS had ever been. The four year gap between movies was also definitely a factor in NEM's failure, sadly I think this was a factor in the failure of the two post-2009 reboot sequels also. Audiences aren't always willing to hang on to a franchise for that long, you need to be striking while the iron is still hot. I had forgotten that Paramount had actually been canvasing options other than TNG before finally being convinced to back that crew one last time, I guess one of the more intriguing roads untraveled is, "What might they have done instead?".
When I think about the TNG movies, what strikes me isn't how good/bad the actual products were. What I feel is disappointment over missed opportunities. Generations is pretty, but no one can say that was the best way to unite Kirk and Picard. Nemesis is far from the best use of Romulans.
What makes that feeling more palpable is that we have SEEN better stories from these same people during the series. We know the potential was there, but they just kept missing the target. And that's profoundly frustrating, and present in ones thoughts, even if you like 2 or more of the films that actually got made.
What makes that feeling more palpable is that we have SEEN better stories from these same people during the series. We know the potential was there, but they just kept missing the target. And that's profoundly frustrating, and present in ones thoughts, even if you like 2 or more of the films that actually got made.
Interesting thoughts.
While I agree that a 4 year gap between films in a franchise isn't a good idea overall, STID, while doing lower domestic box office than ST09, made more money internationally and its total box office surpassed ST09. I think the key difference is that ST09 was a well received film and so there was anticipation for the sequel, whereas Insurrection had been met with mixed reviews and disappointing box office so there wasn't the same kind of excitement for another movie. In 2002 there had been too much Star Trek and the franchise was looking tired and worn out. In 2016 Beyond's lack of box office success I think results from there not being enough attention or desire to keep the franchise alive between films.
Next Generation just didn't translate onto the big screen as well as the original series and I think that comes from the inability of the TPTB to allow the franchise to be pushed out of its comfort zone. If you look at Trek from the mid-90s to the end of Enterprise, there was a definite pattern of playing it safe. With the exception of DS9 - which Berman wasn't as heavily involved in on a daily basis - Voyager and Enterprise largely stuck with the same type of storytelling created on TNG.
I think the original movies worked better because they got writers and producers from Trek II on wards who had never done Star Trek before and they were determined to tell bigger stories that they wouldn't have been able to do on the show. In TNG, the only movie that really worked like that was FC. The TNG movies were written and produced by people who had mostly TV experience.
i think the first part is to be honest the tng cast disnt really have the presence chemisty or charisma of theTOS cast, secondly the TNG movies took themselves to seriously a mistake they learned in Star Trek The Motion Picture. first contact is not bad although i do not think that the earth scenes or the silly dancing add anything.. so badically just Data and Picard lol. Generations was one of the two movies in my life I was literally angry at myslef for paying money to see . one of the issues is they put kirk in just to kill him. the mooes themselves have no real plot twist or strong climax : insurrection is probably the best plot : but i think that they mostly fail because the actors dont seem to have chemistry and they really never let theTNG characters grow
I actually think it has more to do with the fact that TNG and TOS were actually very different shows. TOS was always a better fit on the big screen because the show had been more fun, light hearted with more action than TNG.
Also the TOS show was based on the trio of Kirk/Spock/Bones with the other cast members being very much secondary characters. TNG has established itself as an ensemble show so when the movies came along it was a bit annoying the movies always focused on Picard/Data with the other cast picking up crumbs.
I also agree with the fact that the TNG characters weren't allowed to grow in the movies. Originally in Generations it did look like they were going to take bigger chances with the characters e.g. Data's emotion chip, Worf's promotion but it never panned out. I found it hard to believe that these characters would all be together mostly at the same ranks and positions for 15 years by the time Nemesis came along. The best thing about the TOS movies was when the acknowledged these characters were growing older e.g. Star Trek II.
I sometimes wonder if there would've been any STAR TREK movies, at all, if TNG overlapped TOS, in the first instance. Whilst most of the TOS movies were being released, TOS is all there was of STAR TREK. Even the idea of Phase II only came about because the TOS cast were Beyond™ old. The movies that starred TOS' cast were little more than a nostalgia-fest, in that regard. When TNG entered the movie realm, it was just taken as read that a STAR TREK movie had to be made.
And I suspect that's where TNG movies went wrong ... that sense of entitlement narrowed the scope of what TNG was capable of, even on a multi-million dollar budget. The STAR WARS movies, even the prequels, at least had innovations in FX to justify movie after movie. TNG movies just came out for the sake of coming out with a TNG movie. Had their been some kind of carrot dangling over their heads, other than Box Office Receipts, I feel that even First Contact would've been much bigger ... much more dramatic ...
And I suspect that's where TNG movies went wrong ... that sense of entitlement narrowed the scope of what TNG was capable of, even on a multi-million dollar budget. The STAR WARS movies, even the prequels, at least had innovations in FX to justify movie after movie. TNG movies just came out for the sake of coming out with a TNG movie. Had their been some kind of carrot dangling over their heads, other than Box Office Receipts, I feel that even First Contact would've been much bigger ... much more dramatic ...
Coming back to Nemesis, I remember going to see it on release weekend (in an empty cinema) and being gutted that the leaked script from a year or so previously turned out to be legit, in fact essentially the final script save for a few details! I went to see the film with a friend from my school days who was a big Trek fan, and he basically stopped being a Trek fan that day, I remember his face falling in disbelief at times.
Incidentally, I do remember when people on here would discuss/argue if there'd even be a fourth TNG film.
Incidentally, I do remember when people on here would discuss/argue if there'd even be a fourth TNG film.
When I saw Nemesis for the first time, I remember thinking well it was better than Insurrection but not as good a First Contact, but that was largely because I was just excited to see the TNG cast on screen again....however when I saw it again the second weekend in an empty theater, I remember falling a sleeping during parts of it.
I was one of the fans who had hoped there would be another TNG film and there is a part of me that would love TNG to get the ending it deserves but alas that won't happen now.
That would've made for a much more intriguing film.
Berman cutting the TV shows off from the movies was a terrible decision. Did he never watch II, III or IV? What the TNG films needed was some sense of continuity and evolution from the shows, by not allowing any references or continuity with the shows or previous films, you're essentially pushing them into "extended episode" region.
Also, from what I've read, Patrick Stewart seemed to do more damage than good in the movies. I love the guy, but his ideas just weren't the best. He should've been kept on a leash like Shatner and not allowed to voice his opinion about every little detail. Actors can provide some good feedback for their characters at times, but should be ignored when they start interfering in the story and writing process as a whole.
Completely random, this weekend the Toronto International Film Festival showed all the TNG films as part of an ongoing series marking Star Trek's 50th anniversary. Sadly I missed FC but Insurrection was playing today and since I had a free afternoon I thought why not.
They showed the original 35mm film version which was great except that clearly this version had not been well stored and had a number of scratches and glittery moments. I have to say the nostalgia made it worth while and you know what I actually really enjoyed seeing Insurrection on the big screen. It's not the best movie but it's fun and honestly the fun was infectious. I didn't really realize how much I missed the TNG cast, watching this film kind of felt like watching the end of era again because Star Trek was incline by the time this movie had come out.
They showed the original 35mm film version which was great except that clearly this version had not been well stored and had a number of scratches and glittery moments. I have to say the nostalgia made it worth while and you know what I actually really enjoyed seeing Insurrection on the big screen. It's not the best movie but it's fun and honestly the fun was infectious. I didn't really realize how much I missed the TNG cast, watching this film kind of felt like watching the end of era again because Star Trek was incline by the time this movie had come out.
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