History of Star Trek having no "money"

[Tallguy]

Methods of compensation to other species outside of the Federation does not mean they possess any internal financial systems of their own.

I hear people talking about "having money for dealing with cultures that still use money". Isn't that almost Prime Directive territory? I'm Joe Ferengi eking out my meager capitalistic living in my scarcity based economy. Now here comes Ensign Fed. He can have my entire store if he wants because he has limitless "buying" power. His money isn't "real", it's just an interface between his enlightened post-scarcity culture and my Yankee trader one. Ensign Fed can totally and singlehandedly destabilize an entire non-Federation culture and economy.

Unless the Federation put some kind of brake on Ensign Fed's buying power. But that means that our poor Ensign now has SCARCITY. His "interface" now has an actual VALUE. It becomes, dare I say it, money. He might want to get more of it somehow. Sure he can replicate anything he wants, so there's no point in a shipmate giving him more "money" for a rare 2237 Boston Dodgers Zero Gee Checkers Team trading card. But maybe Ensign Other Guy might give Ensign Fed some more "money" for an extra recreation period? Or Ensign Attractive Classmate's phone number equivalent? Ohhh, that's starting to sound like an economy.

But that's all unnecessary because back in the 23rd century the Federation had money. Even when the Great Bird was making it all happen.

 

[Kemaiku]

I'll take canon references over whatever all that was though.

 

[nascenticity]

My Guess on how it works:

You don't need any currency to live a decently comfortable life in the 24th century. If you are a Federation citizen, you are probably entitled to Food/Clothing/Shelter as basic inalienable rights. They probably allot you housing based on how big your family is (Me, a single male would get a small but comfortable 1 bedroom apartment with a replicator.) I could replicate all the food and clothing I wanted, probably other things like a personal PADD as well. You'd have free access to whatever they call our equivalent of the internet. (Tons of free entertainment.) There would probably be all sorts of free concerts and what not for socializing to attend as well.....I could travel whatever planet I'm on free of charge, I could move to different cities if I wanted, also free. (provided there was available free housing).

If you want Luxury items or premium items, than yes, there would be credits involved, if you wanted to eat home cooked food at Sisko's or buy Hand Made artisan things then it would cost you credits. You would be able to buy (or probably lease for life, I would imagine you would never truly "own" land in the future, properties in desirable locations if you choose. However, the basic residences in the urban zones are still extremely clean and safe, not like the "projects" of today. I imagine the "paid" economy would still be simplified alot more than it is now (no more stock market,etc.) I'm sure some people will earn credits, I'd imagine Starfleet personnel get credits also seeing as they interact in alien ports of call, and serving in Starfleet is seen as noble, so being able to afford some luxuries is a reward for that. But I would imagine if you didn't want to work in the 24th century, if you were a federation citizen, you would easily have that option and still be able to live a comfortable life free of stress (compared to today.)

I like this theory. Along with the idea that "no money" = "no physical money" it seems the simplest and most fitting. It's not even necessarily utopian, I don't think; you would probably still have people with more money and some people with less. The difference being that you can still survive either way. Which seems much more logical.

 

[nascenticity]

Plus even in a totally "moneyless" society I can't see how you could stop people from bartering or trading goods/services, not without doing things that would probably just make your society a dictatorship.

(Sorry for the extra post, I can't see an option to edit my previous one)

 

[FormerLurker]

Keep posting, you'll find one eventually.

It's long been my head-canon that the Federation, and Earth in particular, has currency. They call it "credits". But there hasn't been a physical form of it since long before our heroes in TOS were born. Somewhere along the way the Federation figured out a way to have a cashless society, and make it work*. Something we here and now in the second decade of the 21st century have yet to do. Work this into Tribble Puncher's theory, and you probably come up with something close to how it was always intended to be portrayed on the show.

*Japan attempted a cashless society about a decade ago. It lasted about two years, IIRC, before they called it a failure and began reissuing currency.

 

[nascenticity]

I imagine after a couple more centuries computers will be a lot more secure and people will be more used to trusting them with money. That will probably help.

Japan attempted a cashless society about a decade ago. It lasted about two years, IIRC, before they called it a failure and began reissuing currency.

I've never heard of this. What caused the failure? Did it just not catch on with people?

 

[Arpy]

Because it was the best series out of the bunch.

And "established nothing solidly"? Seriously? Geez, it only established Kirk, Spock, McCoy, Scotty, Sulu, Uhura, Chekov, the Enterprise, Starfleet, the Federation, the Prime Directive, Vulcans, Klingons, Romulans, warp drive, phasers, photon torpedoes, and all the other stuff that the subsequent shows have been building on for half a century. So what if they didn't assign specific years to stuff?

It's not the job of the subsequent series to "fix issues with TOS." It's their job to make good TV shows. That's all.

Actually, TOS came up with Captain Pike, Number One, Dr. Boyce, lasers, lithium crystals, a smiling Vulcanian, an Enterprise that looked like it came out of Flash Gordon, UESPA, Khan remembering Chekov without ever meeting him, Khan ruling a quarter of the planet during brutal Eugenics Wars in the 90's, a monotheistic Federation, flat then bumpy mustache-twirling Klingons, warpless Romulans, a sexist Starfleet, and a bunch of other things. It was malleable and changed as it went along. Again, see my last post.

Subsequent series both fixed some issues of TOS (or at lease tried to, i.e. no female captains) and made as good or better TV shows (No, "Spock's Brain." No!).

 

[WebLurker]

Plus even in a totally "moneyless" society I can't see how you could stop people from bartering or trading goods/services, not without doing things that would probably just make your society a dictatorship.

(Sorry for the extra post, I can't see an option to edit my previous one)

Based on evidence from episodes like "The Survivor" [TAS] and "Q-Less" [DS9], it's not illegal to have or use money (even if its viewed as backwards), but United Earth, at least, eliminated money from the economy, so don't find it in public use.

 

[nascenticity]

Based on evidence from episodes like "The Survivor" [TAS] and "Q-Less" [DS9], it's not illegal to have or use money (even if its viewed as backwards), but United Earth, at least, eliminated money from the economy, so don't find it in public use.

So the government/infrastructure doesn't use money, but private individuals are free to do as they choose? Makes sense.

 

[FormerLurker]

*Japan attempted a cashless society about a decade ago. It lasted about two years, IIRC, before they called it a failure and began reissuing currency.

I've never heard of this. What caused the failure? Did it just not catch on with people?

Yeah, mostly merchants, surprisingly enough. They didn't trust computers to make certain they didn't get stiffed, and made a big stink about it until the government gave up and put actual Yen back on the street.

 

[nascenticity]

Yeah, mostly merchants, surprisingly enough. They didn't trust computers to make certain they didn't get stiffed, and made a big stink about it until the government gave up and put actual Yen back on the street.

Ah that's about what I would have expected. Maybe by the 23rd-24th centuries computers have advance & integrated into society to the point where people are more willing to trust them.

 

[Spot261]

Actually, TOS came up with Captain Pike, Number One, Dr. Boyce, lasers, lithium crystals, a smiling Vulcanian, an Enterprise that looked like it came out of Flash Gordon, UESPA, Khan remembering Chekov without ever meeting him, Khan ruling a quarter of the planet during brutal Eugenics Wars in the 90's, a monotheistic Federation, flat then bumpy mustache-twirling Klingons, warpless Romulans, a sexist Starfleet, and a bunch of other things. It was malleable and changed as it went along. Again, see my last post.

Subsequent series both fixed some issues of TOS (or at lease tried to, i.e. no female captains) and made as good or better TV shows (No, "Spock's Brain." No!).

To be fair, a number of your examples do rely on particular interpretations of dialogue and events on screen, or the ongoing passage of hindsight in order to count as spurious, but your point is valid, there really was a lack of consistency in TOS

 

[Arpy]

To be fair, a number of your examples do rely on particular interpretations of dialogue and events on screen, or the ongoing passage of hindsight in order to count as spurious, but your point is valid, there really was a lack of consistency in TOS

To be fair, please explain.

 

[RAMA]

To be honest, such dialogue was probably an afterthought. It probably just sounded good to Gene or whomever.

The ST economy became post-scarcity at some point, possibly when replicator technology became commonplace. This happened after the TOS movies in my opinion.

No post-scarcity is not socialism, there is a difference. Go look it up. I roll my eyes every single time I hear it.

RAMA

 

[JonnyQuest037]

an Enterprise that looked like it came out of Flash Gordon,

This is blatantly false. Matt Jefferies' design for the Enterprise was a clear break from the aesthetics of science fiction at the time. It had almost nothing in common with the flying saucers and rocketships you saw in most every other movie and TV up until then. That's part of what made it so great. It was a clear paradigm shift.

Khan ruling a quarter of the planet during brutal Eugenics Wars in the 90's,

Let me get this straight... You're going to shit on TOS for not predicting the 1990s with perfect accuracy? That's not a continuity error, that's writers not being psychic.

 

[RAMA]

Not totally true..while a large starship was a revelation, they simply attached the two most common spacecraft images of the time: saucers and cigar shapes.


RAMA

This is blatantly false. Matt Jefferies' design for the Enterprise was a clear break from the aesthetics of science fiction at the time. It had almost nothing in common with the flying saucers and rocketships you saw in most every other movie and TV up until then. That's part of what made it so great. It was a clear paradigm shift.

Let me get this straight... You're going to shit on TOS for not predicting the 1990s with perfect accuracy? That's not a continuity error, that's writers not being psychic.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

Not totally true..while a large starship was a revelation, they simply attached the two most common spacecraft images of the time: saucers and cigar shapes.

Which was different from what had been done by anyone else before.

 

[Arpy]

The original enterprise is a plastic flying saucer with a couple of rockets attached to it, tipped with raygun gothic needles from which you can see strings, and sporting a gigantic deflector dish out of early TV scifi. Try to seriously introduce that ship next to the Abramsprise and see what contemporary general audiences think. It's a cut above Flash Gordon, but not so far as it became.

Re the Eugenics Wars of the 90's? Yeah I'll put some blame there. What in 1966 lead the writers to believe we'd have earth-shattering Eugenic Breeding Wars less than 30 years later? What genius placed Bladerunner in 2019, while we're at it? It's fiction, not science that chooses such poor timetables for this stuff. More importantly, TOS proved itself to be in needing of some afore-mentioned retro-continuity. Again, the Bible needs a few Amendments to make it work. TOS isn't perfect; let it go.

 

[WebLurker]

The original enterprise is a plastic flying saucer with a couple of rockets attached to it, tipped with raygun gothic needles from which you can see strings, and sporting a gigantic deflector dish out of early TV scifi. Try to seriously introduce that ship next to the Abramsprise and see what contemporary general audiences think. It's a cut above Flash Gordon, but not so far as it became.

Since the Abramsverse Enterprise is basically a variation of the original ship, I don't think very many people would raise eyebrows at the exterior. The original Enterprise is one of the most beloved spaceships in history.

Yeah I'll put some blame there. What in 1966 lead the writers to believe we'd have earth-shattering Eugenic Breeding Wars less than 30 years later? What genius placed Bladerunner in 2019, while we're at it? It's fiction, not science that chooses such poor timetables for this stuff. More importantly, TOS proved itself to be in needing of some afore-mentioned retro-continuity. Again, the Bible needs a few Amendments to make it work. TOS isn't perfect; let it go.

Not really fair, since the basic premise of all future sci-fi shows is what could happen, not what actually will. Besides, who's to say that a fictional history has to conform to all of real history exactly?

 

[Spot261]

Essentially I'm agreeing, there are MANY places were the canon in trek is inconsistent and malleable. I'm just adding the proviso that some of the commonly questioned instances are in fact explainable without declaring inconsistency.

Of the ones you mention, the issue of Khan and Chekov for instance really isn't an inconsistency. It would only be one if the had been a positive statement prior to TWOK that the two had never met. Simply failing to show such a meeting on the screen does not preclude there having been one.

The only canon statement we have either way comes from TWOK which clearly states they did. Ergo they did. How we interpret that in terms of the timeline is a separate matter. It's very easy to extrapolate that Chekov may have been belowdecks and encountered Khan in an unshown incident. We don't know for sure, we simply know they did in fact meet, we have a canon source that unambiguously states they did with no contradiction anywhere in the franchise.

Likewise the "no warp" inconsistency for Romulans. All we know from BoT is that the particular Romulan ship which crossed the neutral zone did not currently posess a warp drive at the time of being scanned. It does not follow that it was not FTL capable by some other means (or that the term "simple impulse power" may mean something different to "impulse engines") or that the Romulan Empire did not posess warp capability.

In fact we know the BoP was FTL capable, we are presented with it travelling interstellar distances within a matter of days. Equally we know "warp drive" is only one of many means in the trek universe by which FTL travel can be acheived. Therefore we can infer that "simple impulse power" as declared by Scotty in some means allows for FTL.

As we have only the most fleeting knowledge of 23rd century engineering the only counter to this argument is that some thing with a similar name (impulse engines) on SF vessels tends to be operated as a sublight drive. Again, one clear instance of a thing being true, nothing to outright contradict it.