The Voyager episode was The Omega Directive.
History of Star Trek having no "money"
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The Voyager episode was The Omega Directive.
Dark Frontier, actually.
The interesting thing is, money went the way of the dinosaur in the 22nd century, and indeed, most of Enterprise makes no reference to money. Until TATV where there are at least two references to wallets or salaries.
I think it can safely be said that the idea of the Federation (or at least Earth) not using a currency-based economy was not part of the original plan, but once introduced, was used with near-100% consistency.
As far as previous references go, they seem to be able to be chalked up to figurative expressions, or Starfleet having ways of paying for goods when dealing with people who do work with currency (like how the DS9 crew had a way to pay Quark in latinum when they ate at his bar).
As far as previous references go, they seem to be able to be chalked up to figurative expressions, or Starfleet having ways of paying for goods when dealing with people who do work with currency (like how the DS9 crew had a way to pay Quark in latinum when they ate at his bar).
So it seems we agree that money was part of TOS.
The very notion of "no money" does not seem to enter Star Trek until 1986. From 1964 to 1986 Star Trek has money. There are many references to it, a few plots that revolve around it, and never once is there a reference to not having it. (For that matter even the concept of post-scarcity is never brought up.) Nobody (Roddenberry for example) was ever on record as saying "I think by the far future we've moved past the need..." etc., etc. before 1986.
It wasn't even part of the fan continuity before that. People printed Federation credits in the 70's.
Yes, when Kirk says "Scotty you've earned your pay" it could be a figure of speech. But McCoy talking about the purchase of the M5 or the motivation of the miners on Janus VI is not. Uhura buying Tribbles is not.
Was it just a plot point in The Voyage Home and then TNG took it and ran with it?
I'm willing to accept that sometime post-TOS that money was abandoned just because it's clearly what the writers determined. But to say that it was always that way is just not how it was. It's not even how anybody said it should have been, was it? It flies in the face of established continuity (shock!) to say that in Enterprise that they don't have it, right?
The very notion of "no money" does not seem to enter Star Trek until 1986. From 1964 to 1986 Star Trek has money. There are many references to it, a few plots that revolve around it, and never once is there a reference to not having it. (For that matter even the concept of post-scarcity is never brought up.) Nobody (Roddenberry for example) was ever on record as saying "I think by the far future we've moved past the need..." etc., etc. before 1986.
It wasn't even part of the fan continuity before that. People printed Federation credits in the 70's.
Yes, when Kirk says "Scotty you've earned your pay" it could be a figure of speech. But McCoy talking about the purchase of the M5 or the motivation of the miners on Janus VI is not. Uhura buying Tribbles is not.
Was it just a plot point in The Voyage Home and then TNG took it and ran with it?
I'm willing to accept that sometime post-TOS that money was abandoned just because it's clearly what the writers determined. But to say that it was always that way is just not how it was. It's not even how anybody said it should have been, was it? It flies in the face of established continuity (shock!) to say that in Enterprise that they don't have it, right?
Thanks.
What would stop them from just replicating money? Imagine Voyager enters a system that does use currency. Let's say, Neelix gets his hands on some local money, goes back to the ship, makes more and then goes back to buy what they need. Unethical? It would still be money.
Okay, I've tried to be understanding with your spelling and grammar, your 3-4 posts in a row, but you were specifically told to stop and read the rules (here: http://www.trekbbs.com/threads/only-twelve-like-it-in-the-fleet.283942/page-5#post-11771490).
You need to stop with the personal insults, and please try your best to be more coherent and clear in your posts.
This is the last "friendly warning" you'll get.
I recommend that you review the early episodes of Voyager. The reason they ended up using replicator rations as a form of shipboard currency is because they had to conserve energy for more essential systems. That's why Neelix became the cook and turned Janeway's private dining room into a galley, and every crewmember was allotted a set number of replicator rations (per week or per month... I don't think the series ever specified that). Every so often someone would bemoan having to eat leola root stew because they were "out of replicator rations" and there were references to Tom Paris taking bets on various things, and the currency used was replicator rations. I assume the computer kept track of everyone's current tally of replicator rations and once that tally reached 0, that was it.
I really couldn't care less what goes on with RL ships. We're talking about a TV show, and I'm giving my views on that.
Except it wasn't. They do have a currency-based economy (otherwise how could Beverly have bought that cloth on Farpoint Station?). What they don't have, except in frontier regions, places where they deal with cultures who have different economies, and of course the underground economy, is cash.
There's a lot that goes on at Quark's that pertains to an underground economy - under the table and untraceable - so of course they would need some sort of cash. In this case, it happened to be slips/strips/bars of gold-pressed latinum.
I think so, although someone evidently didn't get that memo in "Encounter at Farpoint." But somewhere along the line, "we don't use money" was interpreted not as "we don't use cash" (which is what I think Kirk meant), but as "we get everything free, thanks to our Almighty Replicators."
Well, maybe Picard gets everything free, but there are people on Earth (including his own brother) who don't have replicators, so how do they get their goods and services? The barter system?
Unethical? Yep. But I do recall reading in one novel that this was how things were handled in situations when the crewmembers were beaming down to a planet where the Prime Directive applied. Someone was told to find a sample of their local currency, bring it back to the ship, and they'd manufacture perfect forgeries for the rest of the landing party to use.
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No, counterfeits, reproductions and forgeries are not money.
Who has money? Kirk, Scotty, Uhura, Picard, Crusher, Dax.
Who else?
Socialism is a stage along the way to pure communism, which would theoretically have no money.
Kor
I've said this before in another thread. I don't think the Federation has a money-less economy so much as it has a paperless economy. No paper money (no checks) or other forms of physical currency (and that would probably include coins as well). Everything is handled electronically. Which is not too far off to what we have now. Or at least, not too off from how things are headed.
I think the writers of Trek throw out lines like this and other things to make it seem unfamiliar, alien, etc. to drive the point home that it is a futuristic society and different to what we are used to. But then they don't really think how such a situation would work.
This makes me think of the Voyager episode Future's End. When they beamed down to look for Braxton and his ship. Did they take some sort of replica of money with them? OK, so Tom and Tuvok "borrowed" a truck for a test drive to go to the Griffith Observatory. But how did Tuvok and the Dr. get to Arizona to rescue Chakotay and Torres? It's not exactly a short distance.
I think the writers of Trek throw out lines like this and other things to make it seem unfamiliar, alien, etc. to drive the point home that it is a futuristic society and different to what we are used to. But then they don't really think how such a situation would work.
This makes me think of the Voyager episode Future's End. When they beamed down to look for Braxton and his ship. Did they take some sort of replica of money with them? OK, so Tom and Tuvok "borrowed" a truck for a test drive to go to the Griffith Observatory. But how did Tuvok and the Dr. get to Arizona to rescue Chakotay and Torres? It's not exactly a short distance.
seriously the federation its self is a socialist economy there is a large canon that supports this
i promise the economy of the federation is not currency based
And there are three seasons of TOS and three movies that refute it.
Now promise me that only using reference from pre-1986.
I was hoping to try something different from "does / does not the Federation have money" perspective. And certainly not a "is it a good / terrible idea" perspective.
TNG says (mostly) that they don't have money. TOS says they do.
It's one thing to say that the economic picture changed. But it seems some people seem to want it to have always been like it was in TNG despite lots of evidence canon and otherwise to the contrary.
Actually not, there only one overt statement in TNG to that effect, in the movie First Contact.
The "no money" thing in TNG was actually a commandment directly from Roddenberry. Ron Moore said that he and a few other writers knew it was a nonsense idea, but were forced to go along with it "because Gene said." According to the money page on Memory Alpha, this even means there is no credit system in the 24th century, which raises the question of what the hell was Crusher talking about when she said "charge it to my account" in Farpoint.
Well, we know that money was supposed to be done away with in the 22nd century, though I guess that's vague enough that we don't know exactly when. It could have been after TATV, which would explain why there are references to money in the present tense throughout the episode. However, thoughout the rest of Enterprise there are no references to money at all, and indeed the episode Carpenter Street, an episode where Archer and T'Pol are sent back to 21st century Earth by Mr. Daniels, the 21st century antagonist of that episode was supposed to be surprised that Archer and T'Pol don't understand the importance of money in a deleted scene. This would suggest that the Enterprise writers were instructed throughout the series that Earth had stopped using money, but for some reason TATV includes references suggesting otherwise.
The money issue really is as convoluted as Starfleet's status as a military. At times we really would be better off ignoring the things established in the rules for no real reason other than "because Gene said so."
My Guess on how it works:
You don't need any currency to live a decently comfortable life in the 24th century. If you are a Federation citizen, you are probably entitled to Food/Clothing/Shelter as basic inalienable rights. They probably allot you housing based on how big your family is (Me, a single male would get a small but comfortable 1 bedroom apartment with a replicator.) I could replicate all the food and clothing I wanted, probably other things like a personal PADD as well. You'd have free access to whatever they call our equivalent of the internet. (Tons of free entertainment.) There would probably be all sorts of free concerts and what not for socializing to attend as well.....I could travel whatever planet I'm on free of charge, I could move to different cities if I wanted, also free. (provided there was available free housing).
If you want Luxury items or premium items, than yes, there would be credits involved, if you wanted to eat home cooked food at Sisko's or buy Hand Made artisan things then it would cost you credits. You would be able to buy (or probably lease for life, I would imagine you would never truly "own" land in the future, properties in desirable locations if you choose. However, the basic residences in the urban zones are still extremely clean and safe, not like the "projects" of today. I imagine the "paid" economy would still be simplified alot more than it is now (no more stock market,etc.) I'm sure some people will earn credits, I'd imagine Starfleet personnel get credits also seeing as they interact in alien ports of call, and serving in Starfleet is seen as noble, so being able to afford some luxuries is a reward for that. But I would imagine if you didn't want to work in the 24th century, if you were a federation citizen, you would easily have that option and still be able to live a comfortable life free of stress (compared to today.)
You don't need any currency to live a decently comfortable life in the 24th century. If you are a Federation citizen, you are probably entitled to Food/Clothing/Shelter as basic inalienable rights. They probably allot you housing based on how big your family is (Me, a single male would get a small but comfortable 1 bedroom apartment with a replicator.) I could replicate all the food and clothing I wanted, probably other things like a personal PADD as well. You'd have free access to whatever they call our equivalent of the internet. (Tons of free entertainment.) There would probably be all sorts of free concerts and what not for socializing to attend as well.....I could travel whatever planet I'm on free of charge, I could move to different cities if I wanted, also free. (provided there was available free housing).
If you want Luxury items or premium items, than yes, there would be credits involved, if you wanted to eat home cooked food at Sisko's or buy Hand Made artisan things then it would cost you credits. You would be able to buy (or probably lease for life, I would imagine you would never truly "own" land in the future, properties in desirable locations if you choose. However, the basic residences in the urban zones are still extremely clean and safe, not like the "projects" of today. I imagine the "paid" economy would still be simplified alot more than it is now (no more stock market,etc.) I'm sure some people will earn credits, I'd imagine Starfleet personnel get credits also seeing as they interact in alien ports of call, and serving in Starfleet is seen as noble, so being able to afford some luxuries is a reward for that. But I would imagine if you didn't want to work in the 24th century, if you were a federation citizen, you would easily have that option and still be able to live a comfortable life free of stress (compared to today.)
It means that when the merchant tried to charge the sale to Crusher's account, he found that there was no such account, and by that time the Enterprise was long gone, Crusher was somewhere in space laughing at him, and there was nothing he could do about it.
Kor
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