History of Star Trek having no "money"

[Tallguy]

(If someone can point me to a relevant thread, I'd be happy to read that.)

I've seen threads that discuss IF there is money in Star Trek. But I'm not asking that.

I'm curious about the history of the notion of "no money" in Star Trek. Where did it come from? When was it introduced?

The first that I can come up with is in The Voyage Home. "They're still using money." I took that to mean they don't use 20th century currency. But others have had a different take.

I don't recall ever reading that the Federation had abandoned money at any time before that. It's not in any of the making of materials I've ever read from the 1960's and 1970's. I don't remember Roddenberry ever talking about it. (And he talked about a lot of things.) There are many references to money and personal wealth in TOS and TAS. The novels of the 1980's frequently made reference to credits of some kind.

So where did people get the idea that there is no money in TOS?
I'm not saying they're right or wrong (obviously I have an opinion.) But where did it come from?

 

[cultcross]

The TNG era is frequently stated to have abandoned money, most directly in In The Cards and ST: First Contact. To my knowledge the only direct reference to the concept in the TOS era is Voyage Home - both the line you cite and the bit in the restaurant where Gillian guessed they don't have money in the 23rd Century, and Kirk says "Well, we don't." As you point out though, both of these could be interpreted as meaning physical money, rather than currency more broadly.

My personal interpretation is that the Federation moved to a moneyless economy between the TOS and TNG eras with the perfection of the replicator, and that it is still a matter of political interest in the time of Picard (who is clearly a strong believer) and Sisko (who perhaps takes a more practical, frontier sort of view).

 

[Seven of Five]

I always thought having no money was a TNG thing, but the quote from The Voyage Home would act as evidence that they weren't using it in the 23rd century either. I also always believed the original intention was to show they were unfamiliar with the notes and coins in the film, but there you go.

 

[soornge]

the argument seems to be that the abundant supply of energy and the ability to replicate has elimnated the base cost of services.additionally sociologically society moved away from a status system . academically there is strong support for a no money economy . socialism is supposed to be the ultimate final stage of economics where all resources are shared equally regardless of position and status. all work is done based on aptitude. this is not new . additionally there are several articles that can be found online specifically on the startrek economy , lastly most seem to agree what commerce existing within the federation is done onthe trading or gifting of speciality goods for the sake of preference or kieche for example picards family wine . or ciscos kids restraunt

 

[The Old Mixer]

There are many references to money and personal wealth in TOS and TAS. The novels of the 1980's frequently made reference to credits of some kind.

The FASA RPG in the '80s even had a supplement for private ship operators called Trader Captains & Merchant Princes that included, among other things, rules for the Federation stock exchange!

 

[F. King Daniel]

The references to money come and go. Kirk talks about how much money Starfleet invested in their training in "Errand of Mercy", says they don't use money in STIV, but Scotty just bought a boat at the start of STVI...

According to Voyager (I don't recall the episode, but the relevant clip and all the ones above are in Imponderables #3 in my sig), something called the "New World Economy" took shape in the late 22nd century, and "Money went the way of the dinosaur"

 

[Lance]

The TNG era is frequently stated to have abandoned money, most directly in In The Cards and ST: First Contact. To my knowledge the only direct reference to the concept in the TOS era is Voyage Home - both the line you cite and the bit in the restaurant where Gillian guessed they don't have money in the 23rd Century, and Kirk says "Well, we don't." As you point out though, both of these could be interpreted as meaning physical money, rather than currency more broadly.

My personal interpretation is that the Federation moved to a moneyless economy between the TOS and TNG eras with the perfection of the replicator, and that it is still a matter of political interest in the time of Picard (who is clearly a strong believer) and Sisko (who perhaps takes a more practical, frontier sort of view).

... on the other hand, Dr Crusher explicitly buys a roll of fabric in Encounter At Farpoint ("Send it to our starship... charge to Dr Crusher.") and Picard, Riker and Troi talk in We'll Always Have Paris of visiting a cafe on the planet Sarona 8 (Picard declares that Troi is "buying".)

My take is that the Earth (and maybe the Federation more broadly) doesn't use currency as we know it today, at least not within themselves, but that for the purposes of trading with races in the galaxy who do, there's still some kind of galactic economy that even the Federation buys into. Maybe Starfleet officers have an onboard 'credit account' that they can tap into, eg. the Dr Crusher example I cited, which would be similar to what cruise liners do today for onboard purchases.

The references to money come and go. Kirk talks about how much money Starfleet invested in their training in "Errand of Mercy", says they don't use money in STIV, but Scotty just bought a boat at the start of STVI...

According to Voyager (I don't recall the episode, but the relevant clip and all the ones above are in Imponderables #3 in my sig), something called the "New World Economy" took shape in the late 22nd century, and "Money went the way of the dinosaur"

Exactly. The evidence is contradictory, even in the TNG/DS9/VOY era.

 

[soornge]

The FASA RPG in the '80s even had a supplement for private ship operators called Trader Captains & Merchant Princes that included, among other things, rules for the Federation stock exchange!

also one of william shatner books (fiction adress federstion economy)

 

[soornge]

oh i forgot alosmone of william shatners fictional books address federation economy i think its before he went off and did tek war most brilliant scifi novel series ever

 

[JonnyQuest037]

The first that I can come up with is in The Voyage Home. "They're still using money." I took that to mean they don't use 20th century currency.

That's my perception. The TNG/DS9/VOY concept of a moneyless economy has never made much sense to me, frankly.

TOS had a fair amount of references to the crew earning money or paying and trading for services.

From "The Doomsday Machine":

KIRK: We're moving, the Enterprise isn't. Maybe that thing will see us and let the Enterprise go. If I only had some phasers.
SCOTT: Phasers? You've got 'em. I have one bank recharged.
KIRK: Scotty, you've just earned your pay for the week. Stand by. Fire phasers.

From "Mudd's Women":

CHILDRESS: Let's get right to business. You want lithium crystals and we've got them.
KIRK: Fine. I'm authorised to pay an equitable price.

From "I, Mudd":

KIRK: All right, Harry, explain. How did you get here? We left you in custody after that affair on the Rigel mining planet.
MUDD: Yes, well, I organised a technical information service bringing modern industrial techniques to backward planets, making available certain valuable patents to struggling young civilisations throughout the galaxy.
KIRK: Did you pay royalties to the owners of those patents?
MUDD: Well, actually, Kirk, as a defender of the free enterprise system, I found myself in a rather ambiguous conflict as a matter of principle.
SPOCK: He did not pay royalties.
MUDD: Knowledge, sir, should be free to all.

From "Requiem for Methuselah":

KIRK: Mister Flint, I have a sick crew up there. We can't possibly reach another planet in time. You can't refuse us the ryetalyn.
FLINT: You're trespassing, Captain.
KIRK: We're in need! We'll pay for it, work for it, trade for it.
FLINT: You have nothing I want.

From "The Ultimate Computer":

KIRK: Genius doesn't work on an assembly line basis. Did Einstein, Kazanga, or Sitar of Vulcan produce new and revolutionary theories on a regular schedule? You can't simply say, today I will be brilliant. No matter how long it took, he came out with multitronics. The M-5.
MCCOY: Right. The government bought it, then Daystrom had to make it work. And he did. But according to Spock, it works illogically.

From "Catspaw":

DESALLE: All right, but it's there and it's real. If it's real, it can be affected. Engineering, stand by to divert all power systems to the outer hull. Prepare impulse engines for generation of maximum heat directed as ordered. Maybe we can't break it, but I'll bet you credits to navy beans we can put a dent in it.

From "Mirror, Mirror":

KIRK2: All right, Spock. Whatever your game is, I'll play it. You want credits, I'll give them to you. You'll be a rich man. A command of your own? I can swing that, too.

Not to mention all the haggling over the price of a Tribble in "The Trouble With Tribbles."

In other news, Star Trek Script Search is the greatest.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

And I just found a couple more references to money in the movies:

Star Trek III:

ALIEN: Oh. Mutara restricted. Take permits many. Money, more.
MCCOY: There aren't going to be any damn permits! How can you get a permit to do a damn illegal thing? Look, price you name, money I got.
ALIEN: Place you name, money I name. Otherwise, bargain, no.

Star Trek VI:

CHANG (OC): 'I am constant as the Northern Star...'
MCCOY: I'd give real money if he'd shut up.

 

[Arpy]

It's one of those things that evolved over time. I doubt they considered the possibility of a moneyless economy in TOS, but once TVH introduced it or the possibility of it, later incarnations ran with it. It's not that unusual. Look at the exchange from "Mudd's Women" quoted above: it references "lithium" crystals, not "dilithium" crystals. Look at DS9 retro-outlawing genetic engineering in the Federation when that's exactly what they were doing in TNG's "Unnatural Selection."

Or, if you like, you could say the full conversion happened between TOS and TNG. We never do learn much about what happens within the Federation, our heroes usually dealing with "foreign policy." Look at the changes to the real world within the last 80 years with the invention of the first computer. If anything you'd think advances happen even faster in the future.

Here's a question: what do you think will happen in the real world when automation eliminates 90% of blue collar jobs and AI's 90% of white collar? Should we continue the same system as we have with 1/10th the population? Are we to end up something akin to "Plato's Stepchildren"?

 

[WebLurker]

For the record, some instances of mentioning money (like McCoy paying if Change would shut up, or character's earning their paycheck), could just be figurative expressions.

 

[Timewalker]

Since there are mentions of real money in later movies, I prefer to think that in ST IV, Kirk's references to money meant that by that point in the 23rd century, they don't use cash. And since the 20th century uses a completely different economy from the one Kirk is used to, he really doesn't know how far he can stretch the money he got from selling his glasses, and we don't get to see how any of the others coped with using cash to get around.

As someone mentioned upthread, they do use money in the 24th century, since Beverly bought that hideous-looking piece of cloth in "Encounter at Farpoint"... but I suspect that most Starfleet officers are pretty clueless about cash. When Picard and Ro were undercover and she was pretending to be a prostitute, she had to remind Picard to pretend to negotiate her price.

But on the worlds where there is a great deal of contact with non-Federation cultures, there will be a variety of ways of paying for goods and services, whether legal or "under the table."

It didn't actually make sense for Voyager to have a credit economy, since they had no access to Federation banks (or whatever the equivalent is). A shipboard economy developed, however - measured in replicator rations and holodeck time. Anything they bought or sold on various planets and space stations would have involved barter.

 

[soornge]

you have to understand the use of ration: in military service you have a ration for everything for example in the modern day military u have a meal ration card : this is only meaning tou have the ability to consime meals while there is a cost aquaited to the meal its an accounting cost not a real
cost same for tobacco and liquor over sea on ship rationing is important because of limitd resource over all rationing in general is not a money thing but an accounting thing :book keeping and accou ting are very different even in a no money exonomy logistic accounting would have to be huge hope that this wasnt a dubious un researched rant from some one who doesnt deserve to have an opinion as i am often being told

 

[soornge]

It's one of those things that evolved over time. I doubt they considered the possibility of a moneyless economy in TOS, but once TVH introduced it or the possibility of it, later incarnations ran with it. It's not that unusual. Look at the exchange from "Mudd's Women" quoted above: it references "lithium" crystals, not "dilithium" crystals. Look at DS9 retro-outlawing genetic engineering in the Federation when that's exactly what they were doing in TNG's "Unnatural Selection."

Or, if you like, you could say the full conversion happened between TOS and TNG. We never do learn much about what happens within the Federation, our heroes usually dealing with "foreign policy." Look at the changes to the real world within the last 80 years with the invention of the first computer. If anything you'd think advances happen even faster in the future.

Here's a question: what do you think will happen in the real world when automation eliminates 90% of blue collar jobs and AI's 90% of white collar? Should we continue the same system as we have with 1/10th the population? Are we to end up something akin to "Plato's Stepchildren"?

everyo e knows the future of the workd is building and fixing robots

 

[soornge]

in rhars to blue collar jobs : i grew up farming i work white collar now but often regret it my point is that not everyone wants to work ata desk people like working labor and work gives more than just money it gives life a purpose : i think the point isnt not tonwork but thst everyone pursues the work they enjoy and are good at:i imagine given the choice many people would live to have a small home with pretty grass and nice view im often encluraged most by the show that in the future everyone is out doing stuff not just sitting home watching tv lol oops got a little dubious in that response and really didnt spend hours researching my opinion

 

[soornge]

(If someone can point me to a relevant thread, I'd be happy to read that.)

I've seen threads that discuss IF there is money in Star Trek. But I'm not asking that.

I'm curious about the history of the notion of "no money" in Star Trek. Where did it come from? When was it introduced?

The first that I can come up with is in The Voyage Home. "They're still using money." I took that to mean they don't use 20th century currency. But others have had a different take.

I don't recall ever reading that the Federation had abandoned money at any time before that. It's not in any of the making of materials I've ever read from the 1960's and 1970's. I don't remember Roddenberry ever talking about it. (And he talked about a lot of things.) There are many references to money and personal wealth in TOS and TAS. The novels of the 1980's frequently made reference to credits of some kind.

So where did people get the idea that there is no money in TOS?
I'm not saying they're right or wrong (obviously I have an opinion.) But where did it come from?

i posted far in this thrad i dont know if u saw it there is a full article on memory alpha i thnk that has libks to actual academic papers on it : also a working economic model exists in one of shatners book before tek war but i dont know the name

 

[cultcross]

@soornge there is a multi quote function to avoid having to post four times in a row - just click "+ QUOTE" on all the posts you want to reply to and then in the reply box press "Insert Quotes".

 

[The Old Mixer]

Thank you, @cultcross , saved me the trouble.

And @soornge , you can save yourself some trouble by leaving this out of your posts:

hope that this wasnt a dubious un researched rant from some one who doesnt deserve to have an opinion as i am often being told

oops got a little dubious in that response and really didnt spend hours researching my opinion

I don't know what you're referring to or who you've got a beef with, but this isn't the place for it.