Should Voyager have been more like the Equinox?

[fireproof78]

If that were true, we wouldn't have so many who say "Voyager should have been exactly like Equinox!"

People who wanted to enjoy Voyager's premise weren't interested in anything about exploration, or an optimistic storyline.

If they were, there'd be more "Okay, I think they should've struggled a bit more for the first two seasons and they settled into more exploration based stuff after that."

Instead all we get is "They should've been struggling for the entire series start to finish, exactly like NuBSG and/or Equinox for years and years and years!"

So, hyperbole require hyperbolic response? O_o

This thread illustrates that many opinions are out there, including a less dark, more balanced approach to the show's concept. You can have exploration, as long as there is consequences to choices and to the ship. If the ship truly is stranded, then wear and tear is normal and should be expected.

VOY had a unique opportunity, but the production team chose to stick to the formula that had proven successful with TNG. That's fair and that's their choice. But, what isn't fair, is to expect those choices to be welcomed with open arms when the pilot sets out a whole different premise.

This isn't a DS9 vs. VOY conversation. This is about expectations of what the production team put forward. No amount of audience blaming or hyperbole will change that fact.

 

[Anwar]

So, hyperbole require hyperbolic response? O_o

I'm just pointing out that typical VOY criticism, constructive or otherwise, really just go for the "Eh, just make it all like NuBSG or Equinox. That'd be perfection." stuff rather than something more believable like "Well, you really can only get so much out of a NuBSG/Equinox style story. Maybe for the first season or so and then move onto something else."

This thread illustrates that many opinions are out there, including a less dark, more balanced approach to the show's concept. You can have exploration, as long as there is consequences to choices and to the ship. If the ship truly is stranded, then wear and tear is normal and should be expected.

The thread illustrates that NOW the fandom is starting to have second thoughts, only because they saw now NuBSG fell apart so quickly. But these attitudes aren't how things were 20 years ago, and that shouldn't be forgotten.

VOY had a unique opportunity, but the production team chose to stick to the formula that had proven successful with TNG. That's fair and that's their choice. But, what isn't fair, is to expect those choices to be welcomed with open arms when the pilot sets out a whole different premise.

Uh-huh, and if they had gone for the "Gritty survival drama" thing and tried to stretch it out for 7 years, odds are Voyager would still be seen as inferior to TNG and DS9 and we'd now be discussing "Eh, Voyager had the unique opportunity to do something special but it fell apart after 2 seasons and never really recovered. They should've gone with something else after the survival stuff petered out and found a way of maintaining the ship better. Such a waste of what could've been a good series."

Instead of a hint of any appreciation for what it DID do.

 

[fireproof78]

I'm just pointing out that typical VOY criticism, constructive or otherwise, really just go for the "Eh, just make it all like NuBSG or Equinox. That'd be perfection." stuff rather than something more believable like "Well, you really can only get so much out of a NuBSG/Equinox style story. Maybe for the first season or so and then move onto something else."

Not all of it, but I admire the summary.

The thread illustrates that NOW the fandom is starting to have second thoughts, only because they saw now NuBSG fell apart so quickly. But these attitudes aren't how things were 20 years ago, and that shouldn't be forgotten.

Right. I've yet to find these attitudes, so I find this hard to believe, or at least as a majority opinion.

Uh-huh, and if they had gone for the "Gritty survival drama" thing and tried to stretch it out for 7 years, odds are Voyager would still be seen as inferior to TNG and DS9 and we'd now be discussing "Eh, Voyager had the unique opportunity to do something special but it fell apart after 2 seasons and never really recovered. They should've gone with something else after the survival stuff petered out and found a way of maintaining the ship better. Such a waste of what could've been a good series."

Instead of a hint of any appreciation for what it DID do.

Well, let's see. I've seen plenty of compliments from magazines, Amazon reviews, internet videos as well members on this forum. I've complimented it several times, especially for memorable aliens of the week.

Also, few are arguing that it has to be 7 years of the exact same plot line, though I hear that argument quite a bit. Instead, a show can evolve over time and become a larger narrative in of itself. VOY didn't even attempt that. So, you can't fault people for wondering what might of been.

 

[F. King Daniel]

I dunno, sounds pretty racist to me

It's that time I moaned about DS9's colour scheme all over again...

 

[Vanyel]

Voyager did seem to make plenty of friends through the series, so there should be no reason why a episode or two after receiving heavy battle damage the ship could do character stories while the ship is docked at a alien starbase, exchanging the maps Voyager made during its journey and maybe propulsion systems technology to races that are warp capable to fix the damage.

Voyager keeping the Borg weapon placements would have been a good modification to the ship. And as someone said earlier, maybe some patchwork repairs to the hull from other friendly aliens.

Voyager didn't have to give away highly advanced tech or maps of Federation space, but maps of friendly areas and what aliens to avoid would be good items for trade.

It could have also just been in the Captains log, or B'Elanna's log if some alien tech turned out to be not as compatible as was originally thought.

 

[LJones41]

Why on earth did the Voyager crew have to be like the Equinox crew? I don't even understand this question. Why? Why couldn't the Enterprise-D crew be like the Equinox crew? Or the Deep Space Nine staff?

VOY didn't even attempt that. So, you can't fault people for wondering what might of been.

Perhaps in your eyes . . . not in mine.

 

[USS Firefly]

Because they had starfleet to back them up, the Enterprise could go to a starbase for repairs

 

[locutus101]

Because they had starfleet to back them up, the Enterprise could go to a starbase for repairs

And they did, at least two times that we know of.

 

[MacLeod]

Yes and No. Perhaps Equinox was the extreme on the other end from where VOY was. It needed to be a few steps closer towards Equinox than it was.

 

[DonIago]

Should Voyager have been as dark as Equinox? No.

Should Voyager have been a bit more realistic in terms of elements such as magical repairs, unlimited shuttlecraft and photon torpedoes, etc.? Yes.

If TNG is a 10 for resource availability and Equinox is a 1, I'd say Voyager was generally a 7 or 8 and should have been more like a 5 or 6.

 

[Anwar]

Should Voyager have been as dark as Equinox? No.

Should Voyager have been a bit more realistic in terms of elements such as magical repairs, unlimited shuttlecraft and photon torpedoes, etc.? Yes.

If TNG is a 10 for resource availability and Equinox is a 1, I'd say Voyager was generally a 7 or 8 and should have been more like a 5 or 6.

So why do the other "Lost Ship" shows like Blakes' 7, Farscape, Lexx and even recent shows like SGU and Dark Matter get away with this stuff to no complaint?

Maybe they should've just have the Caretaker's Array upgrade Voyager in the first episode so the ship had automated maintenance via advanced alien technology. That would've shut the audience up.

 

[DonIago]

I'm entirely unfamiiar with all of the shows you just mentioned except for Farscape. I've seen Farscape but not actively followed many discussions of it, and I found it...interesting, but not necessarily something I'm likely to rewatch.

I will, however, say that Farscape was not nearly as prone to using the "magic repair" button as Voyager seemed to be, nor did they seem to have unlimited shuttlecraft. With no weapons to speak of, that aspect is moot.

 

[fireproof78]

So why do the other "Lost Ship" shows like Blakes' 7, Farscape, Lexx and even recent shows like SGU and Dark Matter get away with this stuff to no complaint?

Maybe they should've just have the Caretaker's Array upgrade Voyager in the first episode so the ship had automated maintenance via advanced alien technology. That would've shut the audience up.

No, just no. Farscape was a consequence driven show by definition. Several actions had long term and lasting consequences, including the slaughter of whole cities, the loss of main characters, damage to the ship and the crew being separated.

Farscape doesn't "get a pass" because it's a "Lost ship" show. So, that's a poor example of a poor argument. There are always complaints.

And, to your larger point of the Caretaker away, yes that would have helped. Or adding other alien tech. That's what people mean when they say they want consequences. It isn't this dark and brooding post-apocalyptic, dark and brooding, garbage that passes for drama that is being requested. It's just wanting the consequences to actually matter. If things don't matter to the writers or don't seem to indicate having any consequences then why should I care?

 

[Anwar]

No, just no. Farscape was a consequence driven show by definition. Several actions had long term and lasting consequences, including the slaughter of whole cities, the loss of main characters, damage to the ship and the crew being separated.

Plenty of times Farscape ignored consequences too.

Farscape doesn't "get a pass" because it's a "Lost ship" show. So, that's a poor example of a poor argument. There are always complaints.

Let me put it this way, if some random alien had put blueprints for some super anti-Borg weapon in Janeway's brain and she used it to destroy them all the same way Crichton had Wormhole Technology put in HIS brain I seriously doubt Voyager would be as praised for it as Farscape was.

And, to your larger point of the Caretaker away, yes that would have helped.

Yes, and we'd still be getting "Well, the show would've been better without the alien tech automating things."

It isn't this dark and brooding post-apocalyptic, dark and brooding, garbage that passes for drama that is being requested.

I don't know, I think it is.

If things don't matter to the writers or don't seem to indicate having any consequences then why should I care?

Same reason people cared about TOS, TNG and DS9 for the same stuff?

 

[MacLeod]

Doesn' it depend on what they do with that supposed super anti-borg tech. In Farscape, didn't we actually have the case where Crichton was being pursed for that Knowledge and he knew the dangers if either side got. In the end he gave them exactly what they wanted, turns out once they saw it action they cooled on the idea.

 

[apollo1984]

I'm entirely unfamiiar with all of the shows you just mentioned except for Farscape. I've seen Farscape but not actively followed many discussions of it, and I found it...interesting, but not necessarily something I'm likely to rewatch.

I will, however, say that Farscape was not nearly as prone to using the "magic repair" button as Voyager seemed to be, nor did they seem to have unlimited shuttlecraft. With no weapons to speak of, that aspect is moot.

When it came to Moya, it was a living ship so quite often it would be repairing itself, no real difference to if we cut ourselves it heals. Then again there were several times when we saw the need of outside help to heal such as finding a agent to numb the pain of moya or even Talyn.

 

[David Strickhouser]

The question that started this thread, "Should Voyager have been more like the Equinox?" gives insight into a way of "gritty" storytelling for a "clean" franchise.
Obviously the writers and producers in creating the two-part "Equinox" wanted to show another crew and commander less noble and de-moralized than the one we'd been watching for over five years.
Would Voyager's crew, by assisting the Equinox, become tempted to use the creatures to accelerate their voyage back to the Alpha Quadrant? And fall into the same "ugly trap" of exploiting another lifeform to their advantage, all in the name of getting home?
By the end of the story, Voyager overcame the dark impulses that befell the Equinox crew (though they did use one poor creature), and their morality held. It held enough to offer some of the surviving Equinox crew a berth on the ship (though they seemed to have disappeared as the program went on).
The idea I posed based on the question, was that, yes, Voyager should have shown some wear and tear by season two, three and so on, like the Equinox vessel as presented. It would have been more "realistic" for a ship lost for several years, away from the Federation, away from any resupply or starbase/drydock layover.
The wear and tear and "patched" together look should have been significant by years six and seven, even if they cobbled together parts from other ships and cultures; or "acquired" Borg components with Seven of Nine's help.
Despite all that, in no way did I want the Voyager crew to deteriorate like the vessel or like the Equinox crew, nor did I expect it to, this being a "hopeful" set of characters.
The "Equinox" storyline offered what could happen, not what should happen.
I just felt the series should have looked more "lived in, rough" for the premise offered.

 

[fireproof78]

Plenty of times Farscape ignored consequences too.

Not in the same way.

Let me put it this way, if some random alien had put blueprints for some super anti-Borg weapon in Janeway's brain and she used it to destroy them all the same way Crichton had Wormhole Technology put in HIS brain I seriously doubt Voyager would be as praised for it as Farscape was.

I highly doubt that. The anticipation of VOY was very high, such that I can remember it and I was ten at the time.

Yes, and we'd still be getting "Well, the show would've been better without the alien tech automating things."

Always going to have complaints. Always. That is the nature of humanity, and it doesn't make it excessive.

I don't know, I think it is.

Fair enough. You are entitled to your opinion. I just don't agree, and think that there is a middle way to crafting a show.

Same reason people cared about TOS, TNG and DS9 for the same stuff?

But, that wasn't the type of show presented by the writers. That's why I don't make the comparison between the shows. I just take VOY as it was, and as it was, it didn't engage me in a way that felt like things matter.

 

[Bigk69er]

Sorry after recently watching voyages again I'm replying to the original post. I don't think voyeger should of been the same as the equinox the reason Janeway had all but a few of her crew was the fact she had stuck to the prime directives it kept them all together and alive. At the end of this episode I was expecting chakotay to say this to Janeway after the way she was ending up like ranson. Alot of time when watching back I always fell like there was alot of things unsaid

 

[LJones41]

As in, constantly under the threat of starvation and power loss, along with a damaged ship. Some 'how far wiould you go to get home' stuff.

No. Because the TREK producers would not have been able to handle it and the viewers would have stayed away, even if they claim that they would have watched it. In fact, every time the series aired a depressing or angsty episode, people complained about it. Deep Space Nine was incapable of being consistently like the Equinox, despite several attempts to do so.

This whole thread seems nothing more than an exercise in hypocrisy.