Well, perhaps it's just as well he didn't also meet the Kardashians -- a race of aliens obsessed with celebrity culture.
Could Captain Kirk have met the Cardassians?
- Thread starter Ghost
- Start date
Well, it is theoretically possible. The problem was only the range: the Cardassia is pretty far from the borders of 23-century Federation. So, while they may meet, the practical effect of such meeting would be no more than some formal diplomacy and cultural exchange - by the standarts of 23-century warp drives, the Cardassian Union was too far, to make any trade relations (or military actions) economically realistic.
The problem is the warp drive capabilities. In 22 century, the average cruising speed of Earth starship was around warp 3-4 (i.e. around 100 lightspeeds by TNG scale)
In 23 century, the average cruising speed of Federation starship was about warp 6 (i.e. around 400 lightspeeds by TNG scale)
And in 24 century the average cruising speed of Federation starship was about warp 9 (i.e. more than 1500 lightspeeds by TNG scale)
So, for example, to travel 100 lightyears, the 24-century starship would need only about 24 days. But the 23-century starship would need four times more (i.e. around three month), and the 22-century starship would need more than a year!
This simply make economically ineffective any sort of contact with Cardassians except "greetings, travellers from beyond! Let's exchange our cultural data and chat a little about philosophy".
Yeah, sure. Just like it's possible he met Betazoids, Bolians or any of the random aliens invented for later series'.
"Official first contact" is either an incredibly specific or then at least a remarkably protracted affair, as per "Move Along Home" where at first Vulcans meet the Wadi in the Gamma Quadrant, then a ship later indicated to be of Bajoran type ferries them to DS9, and they come aboard, and still only Sisko's personal handshake counts as first contact... For all we know, there was a Cardassian colony on the Moon before official first contact was made.
As for distances, we know starships, even slowish ones like the Defiant. take about a week at most to reach DS9 from Earth. So Bajor might actually be close to Earth in relative terms. But that very fact actually works in our favor: if the UFP stayed out of Bajor for so long despite it being that easy to reach, then obviously there's a reason for it, and that reason would also delay close contact with the next-door neighbors Cardassians and their supposed almost-next-door neighbors the Ferengi.
All sorts of reasons might hinder travel in that direction. It's just that we never hear of a single one. There's no ominous nebula blocking the way. There's no immediate contact when Archer's team dissipates the Delphic Expanse. There's no evil empire that would have collapsed after TOS but before TNG. So we don't know of a reason why Kirk wouldn't travel in that direction. Still doesn't mean there wasn't one.
Timo Saloniemi
As for distances, we know starships, even slowish ones like the Defiant. take about a week at most to reach DS9 from Earth. So Bajor might actually be close to Earth in relative terms. But that very fact actually works in our favor: if the UFP stayed out of Bajor for so long despite it being that easy to reach, then obviously there's a reason for it, and that reason would also delay close contact with the next-door neighbors Cardassians and their supposed almost-next-door neighbors the Ferengi.
All sorts of reasons might hinder travel in that direction. It's just that we never hear of a single one. There's no ominous nebula blocking the way. There's no immediate contact when Archer's team dissipates the Delphic Expanse. There's no evil empire that would have collapsed after TOS but before TNG. So we don't know of a reason why Kirk wouldn't travel in that direction. Still doesn't mean there wasn't one.
Timo Saloniemi
A week for the 24-century starship is more than three-and-half month for the 22-century.
P.S. Hm, at which speed "Defiant" moved? "Defiant" have max warp about 9,982 for twelve hours; her max cruiser was never stated.
Or then not, as we really don't know anything much about speeds vs. warp factors, and even less about the difference between TOS and TNG (and perhaps between ENT and TOS as well).
Kirk typically went places at warp six, and Scotty required a coronary bypass at the suggestion of more speed. If Archer in turn dared maintain his warp five for any length of time (his Chief Engineer whined a lot less), the difference in exploratory reach might be quite minimal.
Although there could be all sorts of Tyme Barriers there that weak ships like NX-01 would not dare defy, while the likes of NCC-1701 would be better armed or shielded and could penetrate those with ease...
Actually, she would theoretically max out at warp 9.5 when O'Brien offers to jury-rig her in "The Sound of Her Voice", but Worf counters that anything past warp 9 will tear her apart - a problem partially remedied by further jury-rigging.
I doubt sustaining warp 9.0 would be the first of Sisko's or Kira's choices in those dash-between-Bajor-and-Earth episodes like "Paradise Lost".
Timo Saloniemi
Well, we knew that there are about 5,5 light years between Cardassia and Bajor... and Cardassia Prime is about 30 light years from the nearest border starbase.
Unless the Federation have truly strange structure, the Bajor could not be less than 30-35 lightyears from Earth. As I recall, it was stated that Bajor is about 50 light years from "core planets of Federation". Let's assume that it means 50 light years from Earth. Then we need... FTL speed about 2600 times of speed of light to cover such distances in a week. I.e. greater than warp factor 9, less than 9.9.
I might be in the minority here, but I would love to see major TNG episodes re imagined and redecorated as it may have been in TOS or a supposed TMP/Phase II second series. Seeing how Kirk and company would handle things differently in reimagined stories would be really fun to me. We've seen TNG's take on the Naked Time, and TNG takes on unproduced Phase II scripts.... I would love to see the reverse! Kirk, Harry Mudd and the Ferengi! Kirk trying to romance a Betazoid! Spock and the Borg! The Borg as the return of V'Ger? McCoy discovering the Trill! Lol.
This would also nicely match the scale of the onscreen maps by leaving Earth just outside the right edge... Or, later on, allowing the antispinward flank of Romulus to peek around that edge.
Yes.
...No.
In the general case, warp speed scales are false. We have few and conflicting datapoints, but most of them suggest Kirk, Picard or Janeway could have covered 50 ly in a heartbeat. And Archer in "Broken Bow" made a 15 ly diversion in much less than the "five or six days" that had passed since the very beginning of the episode. We can fudge either way, but the happy medium would indicate fairly effortless travel from Earth to Cardassia, barring concrete obstacles.
Timo Saloniemi
And let's not forget, the average cargo ships is much slower than starships.
So, the distance is not a problem by itself - the availability of economically effective high-warp drives is. There is n much practical benefits of starships reaching some remote systems, if civilian ships could not make economically effective runs on such distance. As I mentioned before, on 22-century civilian drives the 100-linghtyear run would took more than a objective year. Clearly too long for any trade, tourism or conquest.
So, even if Federation and Cardassian Union contacted each other before 24 century... the ammount of contact must be very limited. Definitedly no trade - too far. Scientific expeditions and cultural exchange - probably, but Cardassians, while not so secretive as Romulans, clearly aren't the most friendly and open specie in Galaxy.
So, the distance is not a problem by itself - the availability of economically effective high-warp drives is. There is n much practical benefits of starships reaching some remote systems, if civilian ships could not make economically effective runs on such distance. As I mentioned before, on 22-century civilian drives the 100-linghtyear run would took more than a objective year. Clearly too long for any trade, tourism or conquest.
So, even if Federation and Cardassian Union contacted each other before 24 century... the ammount of contact must be very limited. Definitedly no trade - too far. Scientific expeditions and cultural exchange - probably, but Cardassians, while not so secretive as Romulans, clearly aren't the most friendly and open specie in Galaxy.
The astrography is always a big problem: the 3D maps are pretty hard to put on 2D
Possible explanation: state of subspace? As far as I recall, at least in novels it was mentioned that some area of space could increase the average distance covered on X warp factor, and the other could decrease.
KIrk would inevitably romance the Borg queen
Yet Kasidy Yates' old crate in "For the Cause" can complete a multi-star-system delivery round in a matter of days - with one stretch from Bajor to Dreon VII in 18 hours, and that's supposed to be suspiciously slow. Even assuming Dreon is an immediately neighboring star, those are basically 5 ly apart in the general case, meaning Bajor to Earth would take a week when Yates is dragging her feet.
...Unless we evoke the idea that speeds on short stretches can be significantly faster than on long ones - not just 50% but possibly 500% or 5,000% faster, depending on how much the skipper is willing to risk.
Most certainly. It just might be that traders get the best warp engines there are, or else they can't trade. They seem to subsist on extreme-credit-for-pound commodities and speedy deliveries, there being no bulk hauling other than by robotic carriers.
It wouldn't follow that contact with "relatively distant" species (those at a couple of weeks' travel off the beaten path) should be solidified with regular trade. Rather, the Yateses, Joneses and Walshes out there might keep their contacts secret for best possible profit. And even if the distant folks sometimes went nasty and confiscated, pillaged or destroyed, staying silent might be preferable to running to Starfleet to complain. In "A Taste of Armageddon", the UFP takes action on a region that is a threat to shipping after decades of prevarication; they'd have "contact" in the sense of knowing there were nasties there, but not in the sense of actually contacting those.
I'm desperately hoping there won't be much onscreen on this. An advantage or disadvantage of 5-10% for one route over others, or one day over others, is fine. If it's more than that, though, then we should have a show like Stargate, with the characters never minding irrelevant stuff like warp factors or headings, but rather spending all their dialogue on dialing in the most advantageous route.
Timo Saloniemi
The limiting factor is cost of engine, and it's maintenance. For example, warships of early XX century routinely could run faster than 20 knots and have max speed of 25-30, but the cargo ships were much slower. The Starfleet, being government-funded could ignore cost considerations, but the cargo ships captains could not afford costly engines, the routine cycle of which would eat all the possible profit.
Hm, this may be explained by assuming that she have quite profitable "fast run", where the cost of fast cargo delivery outweighted the risk of stranding the ship's components too much.
Well, it could bring pretty interesting twists in astropolitic) And finally explain, why Federation, Klingon and Romulans quarrels so often for the control of generally useless star systems of tiny colonies. If such colonies are placed nearby some "warp conducts", which could allow cargo ships run faster, than the factor of position in space started to make sence.
There's no reason to assume everyone in the 23rd or 24th century are aware of every species encountered by Starfleet/the Federation. Sure, Kirk might have known about the Cardassians but he also may not have. It's a big universe. The Cardassians of Kirk's time may not have made much noise to get noticed.
It would be helpful if someone could produce an "official" space map with historical data. It's impossible to clearly determine where the various space power's borders meet, and equally as difficult to determine expansion rates or when first contacts were made.
There is just technical problem: the space is three-dimensional. I.e. any possible flat "map of the Federation" would be meaningless.
Easily solved by making it a computer generated map.
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