Could Captain Kirk have met the Cardassians?
- Thread starter Ghost
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Bloody Cardies hogging all the trillium!
But it's not particularly far in terms of time in DS9. And if we choose to believe in the lightyear numbers suggested, then it's trivial in comparison with the distances Kirk spanned - and he still met humans at the other ends of his voyages.
You could throw a rock across the edge of the South from the North in the Civil War - not at some distant frontier, but right next to the respective capitals!
Not that DS9 would have been right next to the UFP even in DS9 - the point was made that Bajor was surrounded by neutral powers that mostly were sympathetic to the Cardassian cause, and that UFP starbases were kept at a distance. But hopping across that neutral gap was never much of a problem travel time wise.
That's not really a valid definition of warp 2, a speed that conveniently got Kirk from star system to star system, and allowed Janeway to hop 5.2 ly in minutes or at most hours. (And isn't this discussion about contact being made in Kirk's time rather than Archer's?)
That Cardassians would have been as hobbled as humans in any of the pre-TNG eras is far from said... If human development (at least up until parity) is supposed to be fast in local terms, then it should follow that Cardassians would have warp five before Archer, now shouldn't it?
Yet in Kirk's time, folks like Cyrano Jones or Carter Winston get around in single-man warp craft easily enough. The former at least was not a privileged individual...
Only that "freighters" didn't have them. Various other civilian space jalopies of much smaller size did exist, and made appearances throughout TOS, in situations that suggested they would not need to spend years or even months in transit.
Or, conversely, since Starfleet never makes profit, it cannot afford high performance engines, but must strive for ease of maintenance first and foremost. Commercial players can go for speed, because the customer pays for it.
Timo Saloniemi
Or, conversely, since Starfleet never makes profit, it cannot afford high performance engines, but must strive for ease of maintenance first and foremost. Commercial players can go for speed, because the customer pays for it.
Timo, this make nop sence.
The commercial players can go for speed only for several cathegories of cargo, that could bring high profit - high enough, so the maintenance of high-tech and high-strain engines could be affordable. For general cargo, this simply would not be profitable - to haul it on high speed.
Recall the brief history of supersonic airliners. They never actually able to bring profit from the regular operations at all.
The military, on the other hands, aren't restricted by the demands of profit. They COULD afford engines, that are otherwise economically disastrous - like SR-71 turboramjets. And they could afford much better trained - i.e. much more costly - personnel to serve.
Not to mention, that as it was frequently stated in TNG, the engine technology is considered the state secret in Federation, and the newest warp engines could not be obtained by private organisations at all.
Timo, this make nop sence.
The commercial players can go for speed only for several cathegories of cargo, that could bring high profit - high enough, so the maintenance of high-tech and high-strain engines could be affordable. For general cargo, this simply would not be profitable - to haul it on high speed.
Recall the brief history of supersonic airliners. They never actually able to bring profit from the regular operations at all.
The military, on the other hands, aren't restricted by the demands of profit. They COULD afford engines, that are otherwise economically disastrous - like SR-71 turboramjets. And they could afford much better trained - i.e. much more costly - personnel to serve.
Not to mention, that as it was frequently stated in TNG, the engine technology is considered the state secret in Federation, and the newest warp engines could not be obtained by private organisations at all.
Which neatly solves our big problem of why "freighters" still putter around at warp 2 a century after the speed limit was lifted. Different engines for different types of cargo, with profit margins dictating the choice. Going back to the roots, a freighter would be a type of ship taking a freight, that is, a payment for shipment of goods. Cyrano Jones would instead operate a trader, a type of ship selling its goods to the highest bidder, for much greater profit than that from freight. A trader might profit from speed more than a freighter (or a packet running regular lines regardless of what if anything is aboard), as it allows her to do a more flexible or complex traveling salesman routine.
Keeping of trade secrets was no Starfleet monopoly. In the TNG era, there were these mad scientists left and right with their superior-to-Starfleet-fare technologies and independent ideas on how to use them. OTOH, the cargo operators of the time faced competition from folks like Xepolites, whose ships could outrun Starfleet warships. We never learned the cargo operators would have been unable to compete.
Timo Saloniemi
The Starfleet monopoly is to protect the best military and dual-purpose technology the Federation possessed. The engines are dual-purpose tech.
I agree, that Starfleet could not forbade someone to obtain more powerfull engine outside the Federation, but what would he do, with non-standard engine INSIDE the Federation? How could he mantain some exotic, non-standard drive outside to the drive's origination point? No Federation dock would be able to repair exotic drive if it malfunctioned. And this is completely out of question for our theoretical "lone traider": if he could not repair his ship, he's really toast.
So, while there are possibly SOME traders who flew exotic, build-outside-of-Federation ships on frontier, their number is pretty low, and they are possibly tended not to divert too much from the ship origination point (because only here it could be repaired).
It's also possible, that Starfleet may just took over the exotic ship in question under the pretex that it may contain some dangerous technology or being secretly fitted with spy equipment. And what would the lone trader do?
Militaries always try to hide what they have. Doesn't mean it would be particularly cutting edge. And Starfleet never has been mentioned as having a mandate to protect the best technology from UFP civilians.
By visiting the origination point annually, and having the authorized repairbeing's number in his communicator? And there's no requirement for the vendor to lie outside the UFP anyway.
...Whereas the number of exotic, built-inside-of-UFP ships capable of interstellar trading is known to be pretty high, as our heroes so often run into them in TOS. Those could well make contact with Cardassia if they can make contact with other hostile UFP neighbors with such ease (Jones with Klingons, Winston with Romulans).
Timo Saloniemi
They may not have a mandate, but they could clearly decide which alien technology could be used by civilians, and which could not.
And what if engine malfunctioned far away from origination world?
Basically, it's good for local traider, which operated in one sector. But then. for whar reason he may need exotic engine? Unless they are the only avaliable so far from Federation, of course.
Kirk could deport entire planetfuls of people on a personal whim, it seems. But it would be odd to assign totalitarian powers to Starfleet that far exceed those of today's supposedly less easygoing military organizations. No navy will stop me from having a powerboat greatly more capable than any of their patrol boats, say. Or operating a car transport that can outrun their big maritime prepositioning ships. They might come asking for my possessions in a time of crisis, though, with a receipt in one hand and a gun in another. So far, we haven't seen Starfleet do even that much.
Or far from a Federation world? Just wait for the repairman to arrive. It's not as if Starfleet would shoot him down.
...Right?
Timo Saloniemi
Possibly like extras with plasticine bumps on their foreheads
True. Haha. But if Cardassians were done in the 60's and intended to look like they do; perhaps a helmet route would have been chosen. Similar to how they did the helmets for the Romulans. It would probably be way cheaper than putting actors in makeup chairs for hours and making the rubber foreheads and necks. Just paint their skin grey and slap a helmet on them.
Wasnt it established that the Cardassians were rather peaceful benign up until 100 years prior DS9 but suffered a ecological event that caused a massive resource shortage that lead them to militarize, annex bajor and establish there empire?
If thats the case the federation could of encountered them much ealier than even kirk and just ignored them.
Plus with Cardassia being a similiar distance to earth than the Klingon homeworld its hard to believe first contact happend so late.
If thats the case the federation could of encountered them much ealier than even kirk and just ignored them.
Plus with Cardassia being a similiar distance to earth than the Klingon homeworld its hard to believe first contact happend so late.
As far as I recall, the distance between Qo'nos and Earth was stated as four days on Warp-4,5. Assuming that they used TOS scale, i.e. around 22 and 11,4 lightyears. Cardassia must be at least three times as far, because it was clearly stated that Bajor is nearly 50 lightyears away from core Federation worlds.
Because one of the basic tenets of the ENT universe is that everyone has better stuff than Starfleet.
Whoa, where'd you get that assumption?
No, I re-watched the episode less than a week ago and the type of ship was never stated.
Not really if you can accept that the growth of the Federation probably wasn't a perfectly uniform growing sphere centered on Earth. The Federation in the 24th century at it's longest dimension is 8,000 light-years, at the same time Bajor is on the frontier at 50 light-years.
Not a uniformed sphere.
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This is tropy, not a rule.
? Er, how else? The Starfleet is the official Federation service, i.e. it's government-funded.
The Cardassians are a paranoid security state given to internal turmoil over scarce resources. They may have had alternating periods going from being an inward looking hermit state to engaging in surprise resource grabs and annexations to address various resource shortages.
Also, it maybe that the Cardassian union just wasn't much of a power in the 23rd century. It was a civilisation simply lost among the crowd of diplomatic minnows and it was only during the 24th century that they built up their military capacity and became an outstanding force to be reckoned with. Certainly around the time of The Wounded they had strong ship but ships not quite on par with Starfleet vessels. This had changed by the time DS9 came around.
Also, it maybe that the Cardassian union just wasn't much of a power in the 23rd century. It was a civilisation simply lost among the crowd of diplomatic minnows and it was only during the 24th century that they built up their military capacity and became an outstanding force to be reckoned with. Certainly around the time of The Wounded they had strong ship but ships not quite on par with Starfleet vessels. This had changed by the time DS9 came around.
Nope. We know that there once was a peaceful Hebitian civilization on Cardassia, but that could have been a totally different species, even. We also know that Gul Madred's childhood was one of abject poverty, and that the military promised to change that, and that when Madred joined the military, his life did become much happier. This doesn't mean things would have been any different a generation before Madred, or a dozen generations before, or a hundred generations before.
But they didn't use that scale, because fifteen lightyears off the course and the back was considered but a minor diversion from the overall voyage.
...Or even its affiliation. Kirk only nods nonconfrontationally after the gangsters themselves make the assumption that she was "from the same outfit" as Kirk. And even that outfit is the UFP in general, not Starfleet specifically.
But the Horizon of "A Piece of the Action" is not a particularly interesting ship, as we have no informative or intriguing constraints on her mission (how fast she got to where she did, what she was doing there, how she got lost) or capabilities (she may or may not have had transporters or subspace radio, phasers or cargo containers). Certainly we learn nothing about the speed of this ship, much less other ships from the same "outfit".
They had ships that made our heroes try and laugh, only they couldn't work up the enthusiasm to actually chuckle at those losers. That Starfleet would have fought a war against them doesn't mean they would have had warships, any more than Al Qaeda does.
(Incidentally, isn't it a bit unfair that the native spellchecker at TrekBBS recognizes Al Qaeda but not Starfleet, Klingons or even phasers?)
Timo Saloniemi
No reason Kirk couldn't have met the Cardassians. They were expansionist before they ever invaded Bajor. But we have to keep in mind space is huge and Kirk was assigned to a small part of it. They might have had to go through Klingon space to get to Cardassian space at the time.
From Memory Alpha:
The Detapa Council, Cardassian Central Command and Obsidian Order were jointly established in the 19th century together forming what was eventually known as theCardassian Union. (DS9: "Defiant") Dukat stated that the Cardassian system of government had been in place for more than five hundred years.
First Republic Edit
The First Republic existed as of the late-21st century and was known for its serialist poetry. This included the works of serialist poet Iloja of Prim, who would have to spend an exile on Vulcan, however. (DS9: "Destiny")
By the mid-22nd century, Cardassian space travelers had been observed by the Organians. (ENT: "Observer Effect") Also during that century, the burial vaults of the First Hebitian civilization were unearthed for the first time. They were plundered by the impoverished Cardassian population, and most of the artifacts stolen. (TNG: "Chain of Command, Part II")
At least one Cardassian starship had encountered the Automated repair station by 2152, and lost a crew member to it. (ENT: "Dead Stop")
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