You would lose ... handily.
Why Didn't People Like Jadzia Dax?
- Thread starter Ro_Laren
- Start date
Untrue and un-called for. Kira is among my top few characters in Trekdom. Uhura, unfortunately, didn't get very much to do, but she was likeable as far as she went. Janeway was very good and at least the actress was capable of complex emotions. Jadzia's problem was she wasn't very good at subtle or shaded reactions. Sure, she could party. She could fight. But when given episodes like "Dax" or "Facets" she was unconvincing and other actors had to react on her behalf, because she couldn't carry scenes. She did get better as the series went on and the writers learned how to write for her, in her wedding she was pretty good.
I think this is the core of it. And yes Kes is another clear example. And no it isn't simply a "girl" thing. May weather on Enterprise is another great example of the type. (As is Hoshi). Wesley would be the Alpha example of this trope. And Chacotay perhaps the most blatant. These are all examples of characters who had seemingly interesting back stories right at the beginning, when sitting down and sketching out characters. But the practicality of actually utilizing the characters supposedly interesting bits in the weekly episodes is nil. And thus the characters largely fall by the wayside, get ignored or get used as background eye candy.
The big problem with Jadzia was the Dax symbiont. The whole Trill thing. It works for an episode or two. But it isn't something obvious about the character. There is no real visual language for it. As a result each time you do a story with it requires a huge amount of pointless exposition that bogs down the episode and the character. You don't need to do a lot of setup each time you use the uniqueness of Worf Quark or Odo. There are certain visual que's that hit you immediately. You do need the exposition with Dax. And that quickly becomes a problem. Star gate SG1 actually handled exactly the same set of character circumstances in much better ways with the Go'ald and the Tokra. Subtle things like having host and symbiont each having distinct voices and personalities. And tying a physical change in so the viewer knew which was which. (The eyes glowing). Without that it just seemed that Jadzia was simply uneven and weird.
Actually Jadzia was mainly middle of the pack for these sorts of character problems. The absolute worst was Kes with her bloody Mayfly situation. Yeah there's an idea that should have stayed in the writers room. "We have this great new Alien character. She looks like an elf!" "What's her deal?" "She only lives a few years!" "How do we communicate to the audience what makes her distinct or special?" "We can have her die!" Yeah when "Kill It" is the first best option for a story whenever you sit down to think through what to do with one of your main cast, you have a core character problem.
The counter examples to this would be Tuvok and Worf. Both created principally as background characters. But because the audience, from prior experience, instantly knew the visual language of the characters without the need for exposition the writers were able to easily, smoothly and often subtly do some really interesting things with them.
Well said. I always hated that Dax's episodes were usually never about her but about Curzon and his history, but I think you nailed down the cinematic failing as well. Unless Jadzia had been joined mid-series, there was no uniqueness or anything that stood out as a contrast. This is why Ezri for the brief time she was on the show worked better for me: we knew the dashing, smart, confident woman she was who took to being a host fairly well. Erzi was a last-minute operation and she never had a chance to even think about being a host, and all of a sudden, she's now got the memories of eight other hosts and learning on a rather steep curve how to manage those personalities.
I'm not sad that Jadzia died; I'd only wish it had happened two seasons earlier.
I'm not sad that Jadzia died; I'd only wish it had happened two seasons earlier.
Honestly even the stuff with Ezri had the same problems. The only thing that really helped with her was by Season 7 Behr and drew had gotten permission to go full bore serialized, and no longer had the full requirements of stand alone episodic tv. So what you learned about Ezri in week one was simply assumed to still be the case in week 2 without needing to be re-introduced.
But the problem at heart was with the Trill. They were a neat idea that worked perfectly for a one shot self contained TNG story. But the concept was not well suited to the episodic series format. This is why Jadzia was so often relegated to "hot quirky science officer". Because the whole Dax thing required so much explanation that it ended up dominating and dragging down the episodes they used it for. The Dax element of the character had no voice of its own. Not visual que's. Nothing for the audience or writers to grab onto.
People grumble that we mostly just saw Dax. But no the truth is the writers did their best to ignore Dax wherever possible and just use Jadzia as the bridge officer with liver spots. Unless it is a Dax specific story there is almost nothing in an episode that gives any indication to who or what Dax is. They just gave us the girl. There is typically nothing ever shown about the characters specific uniqueness or characteristics except the two Dax specific episodes per season. Which excepting Blood Oath, were by and large dull as dirt (and annoyingly loaded with exposition.)
But the problem at heart was with the Trill. They were a neat idea that worked perfectly for a one shot self contained TNG story. But the concept was not well suited to the episodic series format. This is why Jadzia was so often relegated to "hot quirky science officer". Because the whole Dax thing required so much explanation that it ended up dominating and dragging down the episodes they used it for. The Dax element of the character had no voice of its own. Not visual que's. Nothing for the audience or writers to grab onto.
People grumble that we mostly just saw Dax. But no the truth is the writers did their best to ignore Dax wherever possible and just use Jadzia as the bridge officer with liver spots. Unless it is a Dax specific story there is almost nothing in an episode that gives any indication to who or what Dax is. They just gave us the girl. There is typically nothing ever shown about the characters specific uniqueness or characteristics except the two Dax specific episodes per season. Which excepting Blood Oath, were by and large dull as dirt (and annoyingly loaded with exposition.)
But that was what she was always supposed to be: the series Spock/Data/Kes/Seven of Nine/T'Pol. She was stoic and beautiful. Save Rejoined and Facets, none of the Dax-centered episodes attempted to examine what was uniquely "Trill." For the most part, the acting challenges were similar a lot of pseudo-psychological writing of the era, exploring past guilt and repressed memories. When they finally got some miles on the character, the frivolous, but also serious, Dax was possible to pull off, and in For the Uniform, You Are Cordially Invited, and Pale Moonlight, it really came through.
Here's something to ponder: RDM's first (and only original) story for Voyager was "Survival Instinct." Could it not have been a Dax episode?
The limitations of the actress are partially responsible for how few interesting scenes she got. If you're writing for an actress who has trouble registering grief or conflicting emotions, she gets lots of party and fighting scenes and not too much else.
While I would agree that the writers did not address the species-based qualities of the character, I believe that is only a salient issue fr the first two season, when DS9 was, more or less, still imitating TNG. Other characters, especially Odo, suffered from a similar problem, perhaps it was even worse. He was the guy who did the funny trick with his skin. Yet Odo's character experienced extraordinary growth. Why? Because Auberjonois made the most of every scene he was in, infusing it with gravitas even when there was none, and making his personality felt. Moreover, Auberjonois demanded that writers do more, not less, with his part. To that end the actor's skills played a significant part in the development of the character.
It was a great scene. A party scene, like I said.Don't go there: her bachelorette party was awesome!
I really started to dislike Janeway after the first few seasons. There were times when she was the "female picard" and "the woman captain" - and that was a complete disservice to her character and to kate mulgrew. There were times when she really stood out - when she rescued kes from that spiritual forcefield thingie. Or in the later seasons when encouraging the Doctor to develop his own personality.
Tuvok just never spoke to me. When used well, he was fantastic, but overwhelmingly underused.
Posting this before reading all thread pages... Jadzia Dax's original character was very dull. She was supposed to be studious and fairly non-sexual, leaving that to the younger crowd. Sort of flat and vaguely, uninterestingly aloof. She became a much better character years later, after they threw out this characterization, and redrew her as a sort of smirking, non-conformist bohemian. She did a 180 about as thoroughly as Rom did. So stay tuned! Things get better!
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They thought she could carry off being tough and violent because she's so tall, probably. TF isn't good at all kinds of acting... toughness she fails to carry off. I immediately think of "Take it from a simple field officer... we're not going to win this war by running away from the enemy!" That line sounded silly and lightweight, as she played it.
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Nana Visitor did carry it off. In particular, there was this move they had her do... she'd make one big fist with both hands, and plough it into an enemy's stomach , as with Damar, then bring it down on his head, as he's on his way down. Incredibly, I could actually buy this little woman felling the big Cardassian that way. Part was her acting, part was the move.
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They thought she could carry off being tough and violent because she's so tall, probably. TF isn't good at all kinds of acting... toughness she fails to carry off. I immediately think of "Take it from a simple field officer... we're not going to win this war by running away from the enemy!" That line sounded silly and lightweight, as she played it.
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Nana Visitor did carry it off. In particular, there was this move they had her do... she'd make one big fist with both hands, and plough it into an enemy's stomach , as with Damar, then bring it down on his head, as he's on his way down. Incredibly, I could actually buy this little woman felling the big Cardassian that way. Part was her acting, part was the move.
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I would give TF more credit than you, but NV gave the best physical performances of the entire franchise. She was a dancer, and she knew how to use her body to get various effects. I loved how she doubled over after being stabbed in WOTW. And in The Darkness and the Light, she has that long walk from OPS to the O'Brien's quarters, post-partum (although Kira was still pregnant in the story), inflicting her rage and grief on random crewmembers. Well done.
I do remember that. With good acting, you almost feel as if you're seeing something too real and graphic, when you're not really seeing anything. I didn't know that, about her being a dancer. Thanks.
To the OP/thread title: Because some people have no taste. 
Beauty, brains, funny, wise, can fight, high ranking--- it did seem like they added too much to the character to make her almost perfect.
But she could deliver some good points at times.
Like, 'maybe it was arrogant to think you could find a cure in a week, but it was even more arrogant to think there is no cure because Julian Bashir couldn't find it'.
I liked how she delivered that line.
The scene in The Ship where Sisko dresses down Jadzia for being snarky made her, Sisko, and the show look good. Because it just showed the characters acting normal (for a change) with conflicts and flaws.
Although regarding Kes, I think she kicked ass in Warlord.
And Nana Visitor- that stab scene in WOTW was so cool. She looked like someone who was trained to fight.
But she could deliver some good points at times.
Like, 'maybe it was arrogant to think you could find a cure in a week, but it was even more arrogant to think there is no cure because Julian Bashir couldn't find it'.
I liked how she delivered that line.
The scene in The Ship where Sisko dresses down Jadzia for being snarky made her, Sisko, and the show look good. Because it just showed the characters acting normal (for a change) with conflicts and flaws.
Although regarding Kes, I think she kicked ass in Warlord.
And Nana Visitor- that stab scene in WOTW was so cool. She looked like someone who was trained to fight.
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Not to get too far of course here. Janeways character issues are an entirely different bag of cats, stemming out of a writers room without a firm editorial hand. And a lead writer who really really loved the character of Janeway. And not in the normal platonic sense. In the creepy "have you been taking your meds?" "My goddess can do no wrong! She talks to me and tells me to do things sense". Yeah Jerri Taylor's take on Janeway can be a little off putting.
I actually thought Jadzia was a well liked character.
The reason I didn't love her is that she was too good. I understand she has many lives worth of experience, but she always had the answer, she could do everything well, everyone liked her, all the guys were in love with her. That was not interesting to me.
The reason I didn't love her is that she was too good. I understand she has many lives worth of experience, but she always had the answer, she could do everything well, everyone liked her, all the guys were in love with her. That was not interesting to me.
All of the Kira fans try to be dismissive of Jadzia, but I'm not buying it. Jadzia made DS9 worth watching! Kira always left me cold .... she was so predictable with her, "oh! I'm such a tough cookie" routine. As a character, she was very thin. Jadzia, on the other hand, was the total package.
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