Why would Lore want Data's emotion chip?

[tharpdevenport]

Fake rights are rights not given by God, and therefore are fake. Whether you beleive in God or not, you and everybody else living under the United States Constitution should thank your lucky stars they are unalienable God given rights, and not something the government can give and take.

It's absolutely a factor, human beings automatically have these rights and since Data isn't human, he's a machine that Starfleet thought they owned like property, so Data had to seek rights.

Lore is a life form identical to Data, so therefore Lore must have all rights that Data does. They are a race.

No, that's not the measure. Data had to have rights given to him by Starfleet, since he was considered by Starfleet their property. Lore is neither in Starfleet nor covered by their court rulling. He doesn't defacto get these rights because Data did.

Androids are machine contructed by human beings -- they are not a race.

 

[Timo]

God given unalienable rights by definition cant' be given by man, only God.

And since God never gave any (read the Bible and see for yourself), where does that leave us?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Paradise City]

No, that's not the measure. Data had to have rights given to him by Starfleet, since he was considered by Starfleet their property. Lore is neither in Starfleet nor covered by their court rulling. He doesn't defacto get these rights because Data did.

Androids are machine contructed by human beings -- they are not a race.

You're confused. Data is recognised by Starfleet as sentient so it must follow that Lore being identical to Data is sentient too.

Starfleet doesn't recognise sentience on a one at a time basis. It doesn't look at every single Klingon to size up whether each Klingon is sentient or not. It's sufficient to judge one member of a race for them all to be recognised as sentient. And Picard in the episode speaks of androids as a race and warns against reviving slavery. Arguments later accepted by the judge in her ruling.

 

[tharpdevenport]

Under a Constitution that goes hand-in-hand with the Declaration of Injdependance that specifies certain God given inalienablerights, which those in the United States republic is under.

God created man and whatever rights man has, are God given/created, doesn't matter if any versiojn of the Bible doesn't specifically state "God given inalienable rights". Hell, I question whether you've even read it. This response reeks of a person who probably doesn't really know and took this info' off a web page like wikipedia.

It still eaves us back where we were, this pointless loop around to the back door of the house instead of using the front door. Nobody questions a human beings inalienable rights in TNG. Data has to get them bestowed upon him.

You're confused. Data is recognised by Starfleet as sentient so it must follow that Lore being identical to Data is sentient too.

I'm not confused. Data is part of Starfleet, Lore is not. Starfleet recognized legally Data, not Lore. We can interpret it to mean Lore, but it's not the same thing.

 

[Paradise City]

Under a Constitution that goes hand-in-hand with the Declaration of Injdependance that specifies certain God given inalienablerights, which those in the United States republic is under.

God created man and whatever rights man has, are God given/created, doesn't matter if any versiojn of the Bible doesn't specifically state "God given inalienable rights". Hell, I question whether you've even read it. This response reeks of a person who probably doesn't really know and took this info' off a web page like wikipedia.

It still eaves us back where we were, this pointless loop around to the back door of the house instead of using the front door. Nobody questions a human beings inalienable rights in TNG. Data has to get them bestowed upon him.

You seem to be getting confused between hotly contested real world issues and the fictional universe of Star Trek. In the fictional universe of Star Trek the Federation is an uncontested humanist organisation and the ultimate authority to make these kind of judgements rests with the Federation executive. But even if God was affirmed by the Federation it still falls to the Federation executive to correctly interpret what God wants.

 

[Timo]

God created man and whatever rights man has, are God given/created, doesn't matter if any versiojn of the Bible doesn't specifically state "God given inalienable rights". Hell, I question whether you've even read it. This response reeks of a person who probably doesn't really know and took this info' off a web page like wikipedia.

And you're a fairy-worshipping bigoted freak who not apparently but clearly hasn't read his Bible, for what little good that would do. But silly personal insults are another thing men regulate for men. The very subject (among so many others) shows the practical superiority of written law over the word of God.

The US Constitution was written by a bunch of men whose identities are not in dispute (heck, check out the pretty signatures). Another set of men could easily rewrite any and all of the rights, on the very same mandate (but following the rewriting rules set by the initial bunch, and rewritten by several other bunches hence). Since God never puts a word edgewise, where's the problem?

Starfleet doesn't recognise sentience on a one at a time basis.

Yet it clearly did with Data. And had no problem doing so; apparently, "human rights" are something to be taken lightly in the TNG realm, and applied only insofar as absolutely required.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Paradise City]

Data sets the precedence for the rest of his type. If Data is sentient it must follow that Lore is. If Data isn't sentient then Lore can't be. Data being sentient and Lore isn't, is a completely incoherent position. It wouldn't even be entertained. Particularly as this rests on a judgement call and sentience isn't a substance that can be quantified.

 

[Timo]

There's no basis for thinking that two androids of identical make would have identical programming. That's something specific to biologically evolved entities. If the UFP law does not recognize such elementary issues, how can it deal with the factual variety of the universe it exists in?

20th century law just doesn't cut it here - believing in its antiquated notions about identity would be no better than believing in God as the basis of legal or moral judgement. It's a personal opinion an old curmudgeon is allowed to hold, but it cannot be applied professionally.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[DonIago]

Even if Lore was granted the same rights as Data per the Starfleet ruling, which I think is arguable, I also think it would be easy enough to rule Lore mentally incompetent given his previous acts, which would revoke some of his rights in any case.

 

[Paradise City]

There's no basis for thinking that two androids of identical make would have identical programming. That's something specific to biologically evolved entities. If the UFP law does not recognize such elementary issues, how can it deal with the factual variety of the universe it exists in?

20th century law just doesn't cut it here - believing in its antiquated notions about identity would be no better than believing in God as the basis of legal or moral judgement. It's a personal opinion an old curmudgeon is allowed to hold, but it cannot be applied professionally.

Timo Saloniemi

Sentience can't be reduced to programming. Sentience is an intangible quality that can't be quantified or measured or bottled. We do know Data shares all the traits that Lore does. Indeed, in feeling emotions, it could well be argued that Lore has a greater claim to sentience than Data does -- at least until Data gets his chip. There's nothing to tell the difference between whether these androids are simulating self awareness or whether these androids are self aware. It's a judgement call that could go either way and still be justified. But once that judgement is made, it must be consistently followed through and Data being sentient and Lore not, is judicially inconsistent.

 

[Paradise City]

Even if Lore was granted the same rights as Data per the Starfleet ruling, which I think is arguable, I also think it would be easy enough to rule Lore mentally incompetent given his previous acts, which would revoke some of his rights in any case.

Mentally incompetent people still have rights, diminished but they still warrant protection. They can't just be unceremoniously murdered without trail. Judicially executed, possibly but then the Feds have abandoned that practice.

 

[Marsden]

But was Lore harmed in any way? They found him disassembled, and put him together and he operated, he could be again if they took him apart carefully, which was what was indicated.

 

[Kor]

By some standards, the Pakleds may be considered incompetent. That doesn't mean they don't have the rights of sentient beings.

Kor

 

[Timo]

Sentience can't be reduced to programming.

We don't know that. Neither do our heroes.

Sentience is an intangible quality that can't be quantified or measured or bottled.

The most important aspect of sentience is that it is irrelevant to the issue of rights. No law today touches upon the wishy-washy subject in any manner, or even bothers to define "human" much.

Things must be fundamentally different in the UFP.

We do know Data shares all the traits that Lore does.

We do not. We only have some vague ideas of outward appearances. But we know that both Data and Lore are capable of lying, including lying about who or what they really are.

Really, the "we know" talk is nothing but bigoted hogwash unless backed up by something acceptable in the Trek context, such as Soong's expert opinion or a tricorder reading. And Soong made the point that Data was an improved (possibly diminished) Lore, not an exact copy. With androids, that more probably than not means "different species".

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Paradise City]

But was Lore harmed in any way? They found him disassembled, and put him together and he operated, he could be again if they took him apart carefully, which was what was indicated.

Well, yes, the strong vibe is that he's dumped him on a shelf to rot. Given this is my thinkin' as to what happened to him off-screen you could argue they tried to repair him or even that there was a trail off-screen. But he's certainly never mentioned in any significant away again - so I just assume he was left on that shelf.

 

[Paradise City]

We don't know that. Neither do our heroes.



The most important aspect of sentience is that it is irrelevant to the issue of rights. No law today touches upon the wishy-washy subject in any manner, or even bothers to define "human" much.

Things must be fundamentally different in the UFP.



We do not. We only have some vague ideas of outward appearances. But we know that both Data and Lore are capable of lying, including lying about who or what they really are.

Really, the "we know" talk is nothing but bigoted hogwash unless backed up by something acceptable in the Trek context, such as Soong's expert opinion or a tricorder reading. And Soong made the point that Data was an improved (possibly diminished) Lore, not an exact copy. With androids, that more probably than not means "different species".

Timo Saloniemi

Things have to be reasoned, logical and consistent for things to work. That isn't "bigotted hogwash", that's just common sense. We need to screen out the incoherency insofar as we can.

Sentience isn't irrelevant to rights, lol?. That's in gross contradiction. Sentience resides at the heart of rights since It's legal farce to award a non-sentient entity rights. It would be an absurdity to award a lawn-mower rights.

Sentience isn't quantifiable, so the judge must chance her arm. She even states this. There's no mechanism to distinguish between whether self awareness is being simulated or whether it actually takes place. It's a hotly contested debate with an indefinite lifespan. And it's oratory that persuades the Judge to make her ruling. Picard doesn't chuck a chip or a slate of circuitry at the judge and with a smug smile say "hey, babe, that's why Data is sentient - case closed!"

 

[Jedman67]

Well, yes, the strong vibe is that he's dumped him on a shelf to rot. Given this is my thinkin' as to what happened to him off-screen you could argue they tried to repair him or even that there was a trail off-screen. But he's certainly never mentioned in any significant away again - so I just assume he was left on that shelf.

After the events of "Descent: Part II" (horrible episode, btw) Lore is deactivated and disassembled. His head is placed in a special case that would explode if tampered with. I think the Generations novel states that when the Enterprise crashed on Veridian III Lore's head exploded. (Why couldn't they send Lore to Commander Maddox to be analyzed?)

 

[Triskelion]

Does Starfleet make a tricorder swear an oath? They obviously acknowledged Data's free will by accepting his officer candidacy in the first place. He was never their property, unless they claimed salvage rights. Data chose to join Starfleet, and he could just as well have chosen to fly to Key West to write novels; at no point could Starfleet have "claimed" ownership of him. Even if he was just a walking tricorder - he wasn't theirs to claim. If he was, they couldn't make him an officer, because there would be nothing to hold to account, and certainly no honor, loyalty or duty, no oath, no command respect.

Render them individual rights of sapience, OK. The moral right to life as (artificial) life forms, yes. Legal citizenship rights - whole other question. For example, jurisdiction. If Lore were disassembled outside of the Federation, no one might have any legal obligation to reassemble those parts.

 

[DonIago]

You might want to rewatch "Measure of a Man", which specifically involves the question of whether Data can be treated as Starfleet property...

 

[Vandervecken]

Does Starfleet make a tricorder swear an oath? They obviously acknowledged Data's free will by accepting his officer candidacy in the first place. He was never their property, unless they claimed salvage rights. Data chose to join Starfleet, and he could just as well have chosen to fly to Key West to write novels; at no point could Starfleet have "claimed" ownership of him. Even if he was just a walking tricorder - he wasn't theirs to claim. If he was, they couldn't make him an officer, because there would be nothing to hold to account, and certainly no honor, loyalty or duty, no oath, no command respect.

Render them individual rights of sapience, OK. The moral right to life as (artificial) life forms, yes. Legal citizenship rights - whole other question. For example, jurisdiction. If Lore were disassembled outside of the Federation, no one might have any legal obligation to reassemble those parts.

Wouldn't he be Sung's property under that legal doctrine? I would bet on him being confiscated under some points of police powers and eminent domain then. The Feds wouldn't let a spaceship drift free, or a potentially dangerous piece of planetbound machinery move according to its programs unsupervised. They would have a duty to protect citizenry from such things.

I suppose it could be argued that by channeling him into Starfleet, they had done this, as only Starfleet personnel would have to be with him, people who have signed up for and trained to take extra risks. On the other hand, he might be in potential diplomatic or even first contact situations hmmm...no that doesn't work. Data has been given too many sensitive areas to influence in his Starfleet career.


I think Lore wanted it because Data had it. No other real reason. Cain and Abel, Deagol and Sméagol, Salish and Kirok. Plus aforementioned daddy issues.