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STC Ep. 6: "Come Not Between The Dragons" grading and discussion....(possible spoilers)

How do you rate "Come Not Between The Dragons"?

  • Excellent (5/5)

    Votes: 37 42.5%
  • Good (4/5)

    Votes: 30 34.5%
  • Fair (3/5)

    Votes: 15 17.2%
  • Poor (2/5)

    Votes: 4 4.6%
  • Bad (1/5)

    Votes: 1 1.1%

  • Total voters
    87
I didn't take undo offence.
I agree with you, Kim Stinger is playing her own Uhura and I've enjoyed her take on the character. If she wishes to say what she said, it was not her character but the residual energy which caused Uhura to say that. I saw nothing wrong with her reaction to Sulu's comment.
 
The first instance I find of "ya think?" as a stand alone is in the 1993 published play "Belmont Avenue Social Club", as follows:

FRAN. (Patiently.) Some people might not think it's too ... ya know, tasteful.
CHICKIE. Ya think?

Also, the Ngram viewer is limited to what's in the Google Books database, and isn't necessarily inclusive of all periodicals and other places possible quicker to adopt slang.

But if we trust the Ngram at all it's petty apparent "ya think?" wasn't exactly in the vernacular in 1970.
Even in the context of that play, it's not clear that the expression was being used in a sarcastic manner. I grant, though, that it was probably in general use as sarcasm by 1993.
 
I thought the new STC outing was okay. "Fairest of Them All" seems to still be the high water mark. Mignona continues to impress with his portrayal of Kirk. It's nice to see ladies in more prominent roles, including a "first contact" situation. That alien costume was hilarious, reminding me of a cross between a Horta and "Junior" from TNG's "Galaxy's Child". "Dad" reminded me of Dragos' first Dragonship from Jason of Star Command. Back to the ladies: there is one place STC can go where no TOS has gone before: give the ladies other uniforms to wear besides the mini-skirts. Why can't we see ladies in crewmens' jumpsuits? They don't all have to be officers, and they don't all have to wear the standard minis either.
 
Drexler...was the one who sold Vic on the "zoom through the hull breach" visual effect. Vic was initially skeptical of said visual not believing it could have been done back in the 1960s. Drexler explained how it could have been done using a series of mattes to get the desired effect.
But what kind of mattes? A Disney multiplane camera shot (artwork) wouldn't have worked. What would they have matted? Shots dollying through wrecked sets? Miniatures?
 
I can't see that video. Perhaps they've taken it down.
Indeed. That's why I had trouble trying to link to it when I made the post. Sorry.

I hope it returns as one of the extras. They showed the guy in the suit, and these are never easy tasks to do but apparently he was a real trooper.

I know "Ya think?" mainly from Jack O'Neill from Stargate. I'll always associate the phrase with him.
 
Even if such a shot could have been accomplished in 1969-70, it couldn't have been done on Star Trek's schedule and budget.
Oh I accept that. For me it's always more a question COULD this have been done for a reasonable cost in that era.
 
I just finished watching it, and STC continues to impress me with its high quality production values. The cast is great, the atmosphere feels comfortable, and the stories have been quite good, IMO. I don't really have any nitpicks, save that I felt the ending was a bit too much of an emotional button push to the point where it felt blatant and manipulative. I'm fine with shows tinkering with my emotions, good drama or comedy can do that, but subtlety is a factor, and it felt too brazen of an attempt for me. Still, that is a minor point for an otherwise excellent episode. 5/5. :)
 
On a technical level across the board - well done.

That said, just not my type of story and it has an 'Afterschool Special' vibe that's just annoying for me to a degree. Yes, child abuse is bad; but this was about as subtle as the racism aspect of Let This Be Your last Battlefield; and that's not a plus for this episode for me. Plus we really don't know what the 'kid' did; but clearly the inference is that the 'father' is abusive; but they/we really don't know - and Usti could have done something that deserved a bit of a 'spanking'. Yes, Usti was afraid, but it didn't appear(or there was no dialog to indicate) that Usti had been 'abused'.

Also, I still really don't care for the Picard-esque writing done for the character of James T. Kirk. We have him spending a scene being upset he couldn't reach an alien with his words (and with his experiences in previous First Contact situations, and the kind of lifeforms these are - for him to be expecting a 'human-like' response?) ; but in all the Star Trek I've seen - the character WILL try words/diplomacy (where appropriate) first; but has no issues resorting to weapons when diplomacy fails ESPECIALLY when his ship/crew is in danger; and he's never wallowed or been particularly anguished about it. And Kirk also showed restraint when informed another torpedo might kill the 'Father'. For me though the overly introspective/kinder/gentler Kirk (when not mind altered of course ;)) just doesn't work for me. YMMV.

I actually do like that they're showing the Ship's Counselor being willing to throw a punch when needed (even when not mind-altered) - hell, she acted more like I would have expected Kirk to overall; than the Kirk character did in this outing. This was pretty much the first time I've warmed to this character.

All that said, it was definitely worth the watch overall. (I gave it a 'Fair' on the Poll.)
 
I watched it again with my wife last night, and we both enjoyed it. I do think it should have ended with the last bridge scene, perhaps merging some of the final scene with Edgley's character into it. I thought it was very well done, but for me it goes on a little past the point where it should have ended.
 
I watched it again with my wife last night, and we both enjoyed it. I do think it should have ended with the last bridge scene, perhaps merging some of the final scene with Edgley's character into it. I thought it was very well done, but for me it goes on a little past the point where it should have ended.
Indeed. I'm no producer or editor, but I would have ended it with Kirk offering Edgley the chance to speak, and let the content of her message actually remain a part of the imagination, as we cut to the exterior of the ship.
 
Even if such a shot could have been accomplished in 1969-70, it couldn't have been done on Star Trek's schedule and budget.
It comes down to what is possible even if "possible" means only under ideal conditions.

There have been occasional shots I am skeptical about in STC, such as the multiple torpedo barrage in "Fairest Of Them All." But overall I've grasped how new shots could have been done back in the day assuming TOS had the needed time and money. It's a conceit some fan productions can allow themselves as opposed to productions that do whatever they think looks good even knowing it could never have been done in the 1960s.
 
The main thing that I found dragged down the fourth act was the round after round of apologies. Spock apologizes to Kirk, Kirk apologizes to Spock, they both imply an apology to McCoy, then we cut to Smith and McKennah apologizing some more. It goes on a bit long, compared to the crispness of something like "This Side of Paradise," where Kirk cuts the whole thing short by saying, "Well, if we're both in the brig, who's going to build a subsonic transmitter?"
 
Agreed.

Another thing that got me was how Kirk and Spock can't seem to grasp or really offer any resistance to what is happening to them particulatly since it's not much different from what was seen in "Day Of The Dove."

There was also a bit of TNG's "Sarek" in this the way the crew was reacting to the projection of someone else's anger.


Kirk's line about giving a rousing speech struck me as overly self-conscious and perhaps even a bit pompous. I just cannot envision TOS Kirk ever saying something like that. It felt so out of character.
 
Agreed

Kirk's line about giving a rousing speech struck me as overly self-conscious and perhaps even a bit pompous. I just cannot envision TOS Kirk ever saying something like that. It felt so out of character.

Exactly.

I would have liked to see Smith's apology to the transporter chief. That could have been played for laughs.
 
Kirk's line about giving a rousing speech struck me as overly self-conscious and perhaps even a bit pompous. I just cannot envision TOS Kirk ever saying something like that. It felt so out of character.
It is more of a TWOK-type reflection from him, and even that level of introspection was only triggered by the death of Spock.
 
Hmm at some point Kirk would have to mellow some if he was going to move to the Admiralty. Something he later regretted in TMP. A conscious story arc?
 
Maurice said:
"Shields down to *yawn*..." Just. Stop.
A bit harsh and not particularly constructive.
If you've followed Maurice and many others here over the last 5 to 10 years at least, it's often, often, OFTEN been mentioned how using the shields percentage cliché to try to generate dramatic tension and urgency...just...doesn't...work! Sure it's a lot less expensive than staging mini-explosions on the bridge or the corridors, but this one has been milked out of any usefulness.
And no, that was NOT harsh.

I am a big fan of Starship Exeter, but it seems that you have a hard time enjoying other fan productions, in particular, the good ones.
Tell me something, if a football quarterback is asked by a tv sports commentator about the wrong or less-successful plays in whatever team's game, do you also label the guy a hater as well?

First, the positive: As I guessed, Matt Bucy did his usual, awesome cinematography and colour enhancement work.
The new music (I think it was an entirely new music score, I don't remember really hearing any reuses, except one or two familiar bits reworked) enhanced the episode quite well. My only complaint is that they just don't have enough of the jazz influence that guys like Fried, Kaplan and Steiner had. They do have a sweet orchestral sound, just not enough jazz bombast (''Use the horns, Luke!!'').
I liked the creature design, even if it was kinda similar to the Excalbian design.

Less positive: Not many FX shot ''wowzers'' this time out, the asteroid field one was nice with that purple-ish nebula behind it, but just ok. Looking at the creature's animation in outer space, I get the feeling that Doug Drexler is more a modeler than an animator. And as for that controversial shot-through-the-hull, no, they WOULDN't have done a shot like that back in the 60s, sufficient budget or not. That kind of camera choice is more something that came about in the 80s when Spielberg and his contemporaries were redefining classical Hollywood composition (this is independant of advancements in SPFX, although it sure helped). Just look at all 3 original Star Wars films which at the time pushed every Hollywood camera technique, and no new-fangled travelling shot in the lot. But you do see those kinds of shots in the following trilogy. (the Death Star trench sequence is something entirely different)

As for the story itself, well this seemed more like an animated series-type script than a 3rd season-type one. No feeling of danger or real tension, Kirk is irrelevant to the resolution of whatever problem there is.

Things that really stuck out to me: As I previously-guessed, the Kirk/Scotty banter at the start from out of left field is never brought up again (somebody should teach the writing team that in scriptwriting all dialogue should have either subtext or subsequent meaning in one's overall script).

Are they trying to set Chekov up for failure or some future storyline? The only two bits he's involved in is signs he wishes to get promoted from ensign eventually, and the second one where he wants to join Kirk and Spock on the action and is directly rebuffed by Kirk...but no follow-up here at all.

Who is Kipley Brown playing? she certainly doesn't behave like Yeoman Smith from WNMHGB, unless Smith got a whole lot edgier because of Gary Mitchell's death. They really should have just made her an entirely new character in the first place, like Ensign Tongaroa was. Also you gotta love that during the battle between the rock-father and the ship, she's the one who says ''navigation's down!!' instead of the, you know, Navigator?

Plot problems galore, but the two that veer straight into WTF? territory are, (1) inbetween the bit in Eliza's quarters (Eliza Taylor? will she end up the Queen of a planet of pyramid aliens?) with McKennah where she figures out the bit about the Alpha-waves armbands (never mind that she doesn't just tell the Captain on the bridge about them so they all can right away be protected from the ''attack'') and the battle in Engineering, in the scene just before the latter back in sickbay when Kirk and Smith go in, the nurse clearly wears an armband and is activating one on the unconscious doctor's arm...yet she never mentions to the Captain that they should also wear one? (oh yeah, then they wouldn't have a nifty fight scene) And where's the replacement doctor?
And (2) when the ''echo-location'' attack really ramps up, all the crew just get their aggressions and paranoia juiced up, but Spock from the specific dialogue he says (Usti running away, and ''brat''), at first I thought he was possessed telepathically by the rock-father, but apparently not, or this is never even considered or mentioned. But regardless, a ''power' to induce such behaviour is kinda dangerous for any and all living beings in whatever future system these creatures will encounter next, but it doesn't seem to bother Kirk whatsoever...

There are more, but fans of proper writing seem to be a ''minority'' here these days.
 
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If you've followed Maurice and many others here over the last 5 to 10 years at least, it's often, often, OFTEN been mentioned how using the shields percentage cliché to try to generate dramatic tension and urgency...just...doesn't...work! Sure it's a lot less expensive than staging mini-explosions on the bridge or the corridors, but this one has been milked out of any usefulness.
And no, that was NOT harsh.


Tell me something, if a football quarterback is asked by a tv sports commentator about the wrong or less-successful plays in whatever team's game, do you also label the guy a hater as well?

First, the positive: As I guessed, Matt Bucy did his usual, awesome cinematography and colour enhancement work.
The new music (I think it was an entirely new music score, I don't remember really hearing any reuses, except one or two familiar bits reworked) enhanced the episode quite well. My only complaint is that they just don't have enough of the jazz influence that guys like Fried, Kaplan and Steiner had. They do have a sweet orchestral sound, just not enough jazz bombast.
I liked the creature design, even if it was kinda similar to the Excalbian design.

Less positive: Not many FX shot ''wowzers'' this time out, the asteroid field one was nice with that purple-ish nebula behind it, but just ok. Looking at the creature's animation in outer space, I get the feeling that Doug Drexler is more a modeler than an animator. And as for that controversial shot-through-the-hull, no, they WOULDN't have done a shot like that back in the 60s, sufficient budget or not. That kind of camera choice is more something that came about in the 80s when Spielberg and his contemporaries were redefining classical Hollywood composition (this is independant of advancements in SPFX, although it sure helped). Just look at all 3 original Star Wars films which at the time pushed every Hollywood camera technique, and no new-fangled travelling shot in the lot. But you do see those kinds of shots in the following trilogy.

As for the story itself, well this seemed more like an animated series-type script than a 3rd season-type one. No feeling of danger or real tension, Kirk is irrelevant to the resolution of whatever problem there is.

Things that really stuck out to me: As I previously-guessed, the Kirk/Scotty banter at the start from out of left field is never brought up again (somebody should teach the writing team that in scriptwriting all dialogue should have either subtext or subsequent meaning in one's overall script).

Are they trying to set Chekov up for failure or some future storyline? The only two bits he's involved in is signs he wishes to get promoted from ensign eventually, and the second one where he wants to join Kirk and Spock on the action and is directly rebuffed by Kirk...but no follow-up here at all.

Who is Kipley Brown playing? she certainly doesn't behave like Yeoman Smith from WNMHGB, unless Smith got a whole lot edgier because of Gary Mitchell's death. They really should have just made her an entirely new character in the first place, like Ensign Tongaroa was. Also you gotta love that during the battle between the rock-father and the ship, she's the one who says ''navigation's down!!' instead of the, you know, Navigator?

Plot problems galore, but the two that veer straight into WTF? territory are, (1) inbetween the bit in Eliza's quarters (Eliza Taylor? will she end up the Queen of a planet of pyramid aliens?) with McKennah where she figures out the bit about the Alpha-waves armbands (never mind that she doesn't just tell the Captain on the bridge about them so they all can right away be protected from the ''attack'') and the battle in Engineering, in the scene just before the latter back in sickbay when Kirk and Smith go in, the nurse clearly has an armband and is activating one on the unconscious doctor's arm...yet she never mentions to the Captain that they should also wear one? (oh yeah, then they wouldn't have a nifty fight scene) And where's the replacement doctor?
And (2) when the ''echo-location'' attack really ramps up, all the crew just get their aggressions and paranoia juiced up, but Spock from the specific dialogue he says (Usti running away, and ''brat''), at first I thought he was possessed telepathically by the rock-father, but apparently not, or this is never even considered or mentioned. But regardless, a ''power' to induce such behaviour is kinda dangerous for any and all living beings in whatever future system these creatures will encounter next, but it doesn't seem to bother Kirk whatsoever...

There are more, but fans of proper writing seem to be a ''minority'' here these days.
These are valid observations and the kind of critical thinking that should be used when developing a script. Someone should be breaking things down in order to build it back up into something workable that makes sense. You might not solve everything, but you're making the effort to get your ducks in a row.

This kind of exercise can be overlooked. I don't care how good a writer someone thinks they are, having an objective and critical perspective can really help make your story better.


Regarding visual f/x. The issue of composition is a valid one.

The hull breach shot could have been done with the available resources. The question is would anyone have thought of it? If you can find something similar or analogous (and not necessarily from Trek) dating from that period then that gives you an out to seriously consider doing it.

One shot that STC reuses and I think is particularly nice is their Enterprise approaches, flies by and recedes into the distance. In TOS that was two sequences: the first of the series production version of the 11 footer approaching then cut two a stock shot of the WNMHGB version receding. It's a cost saving sequence. In STC they have a nice seamless panning sequence from approach to recede. That probably could have been done back in the day given sufficient time to set the shot up, but the challenge might be the cumbersome camera and dolly moving smoothly to simulate the panning flyby.

We do know that TOS considered some things that were vetoed due to cost. Today's resources can allow for some of those things to be reconsidered. I recall a still of the WNMHGB Enterprise shot from above but went unused. A shot like that could now be done. We're also familiar with the existence of reverse decals to create the illusion of filming the ship's port side. That is no longer an issue today whether using a physical model or cgi.

Seeing the ship flying around like a fighter jet is a non-starter simply because the filming equipment of the day couldn't allow for that.
 
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