STC Ep. 6: "Come Not Between The Dragons" grading and discussion....(possible spoilers)

[Warped9]

People are forgetting the opening shot in the Cage. That's a pretty tricky shot, maybe the trickiest shot ever done in TOS. Given that shot, TOS may have wanted to do shots like these, but cost-wise, they wouldn't have been able to pull it off.

We're not forgetting. It touches on the point I was making above. There are things they would like to have done but time, money and sometimes resources were an obstacle.

Resources less so because they would have thought in terms of what was technically possible at the time. So the real obstacles were sufficient time and money and to some extent what might have occured to them.

What is interesting is how dynamic that opening shot looks in "The Cage" while it looks so flat and dull in TOS-R. And in "The Cage" the 11 footer didn't even have any working lights yet.

 

[Not Herbert]

The new music (I think it was an entirely new music score, I don't remember really hearing any reuses, except one or two familiar bits reworked) enhanced the episode quite well. My only complaint is that they just don't have enough of the jazz influence that guys like Fried, Kaplan and Steiner had. They do have a sweet orchestral sound, just not enough jazz bombast (''Use the horns, Luke!!'').
I liked the creature design, even if it was kinda similar to the Excalbian design.

I wrote a new score, but Vic had "temp love" in a few spots and opted to use library cues. So in fact, there are plenty of TOS library cues used or edited (not by me) with my cues. As far as a "jazz influence" is concerned, I wrote this more in the Kaplan style but occasionally went in the Duning direction and rearranged a Duning cue from "Is there In Truth No Beauty?". I believe that my credentials show that I am more of a jazz musician than Fried, Kaplan, or Steiner ever where.

 

[Warped9]

I don't think Usdi looked anything like an Excalbian. Yarnek was an asymmetrical looking creature while Usdi looked more polished and certainly symmetrical.

 

[Bixby]

People are forgetting the opening shot in the Cage. That's a pretty tricky shot, maybe the trickiest shot ever done in TOS. Given that shot, TOS may have wanted to do shots like these, but cost-wise, they wouldn't have been able to pull it off.

It's a tricky shot for the camera team only as far as synchronising the speed and approach of the camera for the outer space shot with the same for the live action footage. The live action is kinda badly matted in over the ''bubble'' on top of the ship.
Also you're mixing two different eras of FX filmmaking. For the Cage opener they used the elaborate travelling dollies that had been a staple in Hollywood for a few years back then, one example of an elaborate dolly would be in Touch of Evil if you really want to see a complicated shot

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The kind of shot necessary back then to ace what they did in ''Dragons'', really necessitated at the very least the computer-controlled tracks that were developped 10 years later for Star Wars. When ''people'' here suggest that mattes could have given the same effect as Drexler's CGI shot, then explain to me why Stanley Kubrick around this same period didn't attempt such a shot for 2001 (especially for the space station approach)? Because it would have looked like crap, and he had the singlemindedness and the budget to attempt one...
But also, it WASN'T the kind of shot composition that was even considered back in 60s Hollywood.

And to NotHerbert, thanks for the clarification, I'll give the music another listen. Next time, could you put in a Henry Mancini/Hoyt Curtin influence?

 

[RAMA]

This one was tough to get through..possibly too faithful to some TOS episodes? It reminded me of watching some Voyager episodes where I felt I'd seen them before and done better elsewhere. Maybe it's the cardboard sets (also too faithfully reproduced) or the equally cardboard acting. Whatever it was I just didn't get into it.

I graded it fair because I know the people behind it mean well and try pretty hard. I believe Drex is still doing the FX and the Enterprise looks great.

RAMA

 

[feek61]

None of the sets are cardboard, lol

 

[9gs]

This one was tough to get through..possibly too faithful to some TOS episodes? It reminded me of watching some Voyager episodes where I felt I'd seen them before and done better elsewhere. Maybe it's the cardboard sets (also too faithfully reproduced) or the equally cardboard acting. Whatever it was I just didn't get into it.

I graded it fair because I know the people behind it mean well and try pretty hard. I believe Drex is still doing the FX and the Enterprise looks great.

RAMA

Cardboard sets? That's an ignorant comment. Obviously you have not followed the building of the Engineering set for the eight months it took. It is more structurally sound then some modern houses.

 

[mos6507]

I don't think Usdi looked anything like an Excalbian. Yarnek was an asymmetrical looking creature while Usdi looked more polished and certainly symmetrical.

Depends on how alike they'd have to be to justify the term similar. They're both men in suits meant to be rock creatures with glowing areas around the head. Considering how few men-in-suit aliens there were in TOS, then Yarnek is the closest, not that it really matters other than making an observation.

 

[Reanok]

I watched this new Episode twice I really liked the story. The cast did a great job acting in this story they keep getting better with every new episode.

 

[STEPhon IT]

We do know that TOS considered some things that were vetoed due to cost. Today's resources can allow for some of those things to be reconsidered. I recall a still of the WNMHGB Enterprise shot from above but went unused. A shot like that could now be done. We're also familiar with the existence of reverse decals to create the illusion of filming the ship's port side. That is no longer an issue today whether using a physical model or cgi.

I hope they don't conjure up an idea to have the Enterprise land on a Moon or something.

 

[Zaminhon]

The Enterprise never had that capability so why would they do that?

 

[STEPhon IT]

It's one of the legendary tales I've read, the ship was conceived to land but because of budget constraints they opted on transporters. With today's FX they could land the ship.

 

[Draculasaurus]

I certainly liked it a lot and was impressed with the production values.
It failed for me somewhat thematically though. It's a prominent element of the story that our emotions are basically a chemical situation that we can't control. It seems hypocritical when Kirk is only able to be a good person with the aid of a medical machine yet expects some alien creature to rise above its emotions.
Maybe there was some metaphor about psychopharmacology that went over my head?
Anyway it seemed a little scattered in its moral approach.
Still a lot to like though! Too much to list.

 

[dmac]

For me, these guys have become the characters and imo, the only one who approaches parody is Grant - he is doing a voice impression and he appears to struggle with it. He would be much more believable if he relaxed and used his own voice. I've totally bought Vic, Todd, and of course Chris and of what little I've seen of this ep, Chris is totally channeling his dad. Prior to this he went in and out of the accent, but based on the teaser , I think he's finally nailing it. Chuck Huber is also growing on me as McCoy, although he's not quite there yet.

I've avoided this thread until I saw the episode..... AWESOME JOB GUYS!!

Koenig's Pavel Chekov expression of Russian English wasn't correct in the 1st place and it got worse in the movies. Nuclear vessels does not change into "Nuclear Wessels" it was bad writing because there is no "W" in Russian. It's no wonder that Grant might struggle with it, I'm around English speaking Russians a lot, half of my wife's English she picked up from me.
An example of English with a Russian accent would be the voice over for the 4 year old girl in Project Potemkin's "The Last Child"
But there is the issue, to get it correct wouldn't be Chekov.

 

[Astra]

there is no "W" in Russian.

I thought the third letter in the alphabet was pronounced like W? At least that's how I learnt it.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe...bet_3.svg/2000px-00Russian_Alphabet_3.svg.png

 

[STEPhon IT]

I've avoided this thread until I saw the episode..... AWESOME JOB GUYS!!

Koenig's Pavel Chekov expression of Russian English wasn't correct in the 1st place and it got worse in the movies. Nuclear vessels does not change into "Nuclear Wessels" it was bad writing because there is no "W" in Russian. It's no wonder that Grant might struggle with it, I'm around English speaking Russians a lot, half of my wife's English she picked up from me.
An example of English with a Russian accent would be the voice over for the 4 year old girl in Project Potemkin's "The Last Child"
But there is the issue, to get it correct wouldn't be Chekov.

I guess it doesn't matter if the actor gets anything right because he's not important to the plot, but I would love for the actor to make Chekov his own by giving his character a proper accent. Monkeying off of Koenig comes close to parody. Bad Russian accents shouldn't be the embodiment of the character of Pavel Chekov.

 

[dmac]

I thought the third letter in the alphabet was pronounced like W? At least that's how I learnt it.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe...bet_3.svg/2000px-00Russian_Alphabet_3.svg.png

Has nothing to do with making Vessels sound like Wessels.
3 letter sound is va according to the Russian sitting next to me.

 

[dmac]

I guess it doesn't matter if the actor gets anything right because he's not important to the plot, but I would love for the actor to make Chekov his own by giving his character a proper accent. Monkeying off of Koenig comes close to parody. Bad Russian accents shouldn't be the embodiment of the character of Pavel Chekov.

A young man from Russia allowed to sit at Navigation on a Starship, fill in as a Science officer would probably not sound uneducated.
It was probably a bad research stereotype from the 60's that's harder to get away with now.

 

[Maurice]

You couldn't have done a pan flyby on TOS because to do it with a physical model you'd have to have a 180° bluescreen behind the model that would need to be evenly lit and yet not get blue spill on the model (good luck). You'd also need a bigger stage than TOS had in order to have enough room for the camera to dolly that far. In short, it would have been possible but it would have been extremely difficult.

 

[RAMA]

None of the sets are cardboard, lol

So you took my comment literally then...really?

RAMA