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Space Based Solar Power

While I am deeply skeptical of space-based solar power satellites, um ... basically every satellite, including some costing upwards of ten billion dollars, is built with the assumption it'll never be touched by human hands after launch.
Unlike power plants, which require human intervention and regular maintenance to ensure their reliability and functionality. Even on Earth, communications equipment can sit for years without direct physical maintenance. A good cell tower or a wifi router doesn't even get serviced and repaired, just replaced when it breaks down.

But when you talk about commercial space-based solar power, that's no mere communications satellite. That's an orbital complex weighing at least a couple of hundred tons, transmitting hundreds of gigawatts at a time, with solar arrays having a greater surface area than anything ever flown. Such a complex would cost something like half a trillion dollars to build; with no capacity for on-site maintenance and upkeep, you'd have to either make it extremely robust, or accept a useful lifespan of 10 to 20 years and then dispose of it. You're not going to commoditize something that takes ten years to build and costs $500 billion and then gets decommissioned 10 years later.

There are lots of reasons you might want to build something on that scale. But space-based solar power isn't a good enough reason on its own.

It also strikes me as a weird bit of definition-chopping to concede that while Japan may have and launch rockets, and build and launch and operate satellites, and train and launch astronauts, that it hasn't got a space program.
By that definition even my high school has a space program.
 
Why "a" huge complex when "several" not-so-huge complexes would be just as good? We don't have just ONE communications satellite and ONE wifi tower. Most concepts of SSPS I'm aware of envision a constellation of stations.
 
Why "a" huge complex when "several" not-so-huge complexes would be just as good? We don't have just ONE communications satellite and ONE wifi tower. Most concepts of SSPS I'm aware of envision a constellation of stations.

That seems like the obvious answer, but how hard is it to make the death ray that shoots the energy to earth? I would guess each one of those would be huge.
 
Why "a" huge complex when "several" not-so-huge complexes would be just as good?
Because "not so huge" in this context basically means something at least as large as the ISS. It just works out this way mathematically: solar energy density near Earth is about 1360 watts per square meter. A solar panel that gets around 50% efficiency in conversion (e.g. fictional, futuristic super-panels that don't exist yet) would therefore net about 700 watts per cubic meter. For an orbital solar platform to produce commercially viable power it would need to have an output of around 2GW (even ignoring losses due to transmission from orbit to ground).

This means your solar power station -- or stations, in that case -- must support solar arrays with a surface area of 2,857,142 square meters. By comparison, the International Space Station's solar arrays have a surface area of around 3,000 square meters. By further comparison, the total surface area of the Sears Tower is about 420,000 square meters; if you had one Sears Tower's worth of solar arrays in geostationary orbit with super-fancy futuristic high efficiency solar cells, it would have a power output of about 294MW. Because of the huge costs involved, that's not even CLOSE to being competitive with conventional power sources; you'll need at least 8 more of these huge structures if you want to break into the market. But let's say 300MW is a "starter" power plant. Where does this get us?

It's been a LONG time since I looked at the actual numbers, but I once calculated a figure of about 1kg per square meter of solar cell, excluding power conditioning hardware. Which means your 300MW orbital solar array has a mass -- FOR THE ARRAYS ALONE -- of 420 tons. Nobody knows the exact cost of a typical HIIB launch, but let's be generous and assume they're secretly competitive with SpaceX (only in their wildest dreams, but let's pretend that for now) and give them a cost to orbit of around $5,000/kg.

So the cost just to launch the solar panels would be $2.1 billion. And that's before you factor in the cost of the power conditioning hardware, the microwave transmitters, the control systems, the various components of the truss structure, support structure, stationkeeping hardware, etc. And all of THAT before you factor in the cost of the receiving station, which is basically a whole second power plant of its own. This is, in the end, about $10 billion for a power plant that produces only slightly more electricity than a coal-fired plant that could be setup for $400 million. And the really shitty part is, you could actually eliminate most of that cost by simply NOT launching the solar panels into orbit; most GROUND-based solar power plant in the 300MWe range cost between $500 and $700 million to build. And remember that this is based on the assumption that Japan can achieve launch costs that even SpaceX can barely sustain; the real figure, once you include development costs, and the actual cost of Japan's launch vehicles, would be in the neighborhood of $50 to $100 billion.


So orbital solar energy as a commodity IN AND OF ITSELF makes no economic sense. It does exactly what ground-based solar does, it just does it way less efficiently and way more expensively. It is, on the other hand, a relatively cheap way for a very large facility already in place to take advantage of its surplus natural resources -- e.g. an abundance of intense sunlight -- and export that resource back to Earth. That is, people who ALREADY LIVE IN SPACE would find orbital solar power to be one of their most convenient export commodities.

Basically: orbital solar power will never be profitable to anyone who doesn't already live in orbit. It costs too much to ship all that hardware up the gravity well -- and is too risky to leave it all unattended for years at a time -- for it to be even slightly practical from our end.
 
Don't let me stop you. Maybe you'll get to the point some day.

Touche'

So the cost just to launch the solar panels would be $2.1 billion. .

We are spending more than that on Webb, so.

Also recognize that there are political factors involved.

Let us say that--for only 2 bil, I could build enough solar panels to power all the US--but it was to be ground based.

I doubt the Republican controlled would vote for it. But this bunch is as pro-space as I've seen, so let's push this. It really doesn't matter to them if they get the 1.5 trillion from F-36 (total life cycle cost0 or from SPSS. That it is a new expense for aerospace companies means that there is political backing--and the folks in the Space States will vote for that like they didn't vote for Solyndra.

And SPSS doesn't have to mean photovoltaics
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=17902.460

The author here is even looking at space nuclear power.
http://www.thespacereview.com/article/2941/1

I just want to see more infrastructure up there--period. And if it takes the Richard Shelbies of the Senate to do it--fine with me.
 
while Japan may have and launch rockets, and build and launch and operate satellites, and train and launch astronauts, that it hasn't got a space program
By this you're saying that the United States doesn't have a space program?
The ability to beam power back to Earth FROM orbit implies a surplus of energy that a massive orbital facility does not consume on its own
No, it would be a large solar power collector whose sole purpose is to beam power to the surface, and not beam "surplus."
 
By this you're saying that the United States doesn't have a space program?
The United States operates manned spacecraft in orbit (the ISS) and trains its astronauts domestically, so TECHNICALLY we do still have a space program even though we lack domestic launch capabilities.

The same could probably be said for Japan if they had their own astronaut training program and the capacity to independently manage manned spacecraft in orbit. At the moment they have no plans to develop either of those things.

No, it would be a large solar power collector whose sole purpose is to beam power to the surface, and not beam "surplus."
And I just finished writing an entire long post along with the numbers that shows that building a solar power collector anywhere but on the surface of Earth makes no economic sense whatsoever. It only begins to make sense when that huge solar power collector has already been placed in orbit for other purposes -- namely, electrical generation for a massive orbital habitat -- which then makes extra money by beaming the surplus energy to Earth.

Beyond that, it's a bit like the economics of collecting natural gas from Titan. Yes, Titan has lots of hydrocarbons that could be useful for fuel production, but there's no reason to GO to Titan just to collect them. Quite the opposite: someone who lives on Titan would be able to make money by shipping those excess gases back to Earth since he has no real use for them where he lives. That sort of economic exchange, however, requires someone to already be living on Titan; nobody does, so it's a dead issue. Same with orbital solar power: nobody lives in space, so nobody is going to be building orbital solar power arrays on the scale that would even BEGIN to make economic sense.
 
We are spending more than that on Webb, so...
... and how's that workin out for us?

Besides, that isn't the cost of the solar panels, the collector, the technology, the hardware or the project itself. That's the cost JUST TO LAUNCH THE PANELS. Also remember that this is based on the assumption that JAXA can launch payloads at the same price as SpaceX. You don't actually think that's a safe assumption, do you?

And what do you think the actual system is going to cost to develop? Or did you think the entire powersat is going to be constructed out of leftover copies of "The High Frontier"?

Let us say that--for only 2 bil, I could build enough solar panels to power all the US--but it was to be ground based.

I doubt the Republican controlled would vote for it...
Cool story, bro.

But we're talking about JAPAN, not the U.S. We already know the U.S. will never commit to orbital solar power. Japan might, IF it made economic sense.

Which as explained above, it does not.

And SPSS doesn't have to mean photovoltaics
Not if weight savings are irrelevant to you. If you DON'T care about saving weight, re-estimate launch costs at around $8 billion.

The author here is even looking at space nuclear power.
http://www.thespacereview.com/article/2941/1
Cool story, bro.

You know that GROUND based nuclear power is a thing, right?
 
Less and less so http://up-ship.com/blog/?p=31649

Space based solar has a wow factor that TVA (or any other project) lacks. Big aerospace will lobby for it.
Will they? Because they haven't said a peep about it since Gerard O'Neil first came up with the idea.

Primarily because it's a bad idea and Big Aerospace doesn't lobby for things that are hard, expensive, and unprofitable.

Also, again, we're talking about JAPAN. "Big aerospace" doesn't quite have that kind of relationship with the Diet.
 
Um, did you read the article? it's basically several spools of wire unreeled to make an electronic "sail". Not quite "launching" or "constructing" something 40 kilometers in diameter.
 
Some other musings on
Space solar power
http://eandt.theiet.org/magazine/2014/10/space-based-solar-power.cfm

I like the "staggered slat" idea from here.
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=17902.msg1518926#msg1518926

Similar to SPSS--the idea of solar sails

The E-sail seems more doable
http://nextbigfuture.com/2016/04/nasa-testing-electric-solar-sail-for.html
http://www.nasa.gov/centers/marshal...sting-of-revolutionary-e-sail-technology.html
http://nextbigfuture.com/2016/04/combining-magnetic-and-electric-sails.html

Some want "brane craft"
https://www.nasa.gov/feature/brane-craft
Now that's fine and all--but I think it would make more sense for this to be filled--not with volitile propellants--but with self healing glue for SPSS

Other featherlight concepts
https://www.nasa.gov/feature/light-...probe-for-extreme-environment-exploration-and

This may eliminate the need for orbiting asteroids:
https://www.nasa.gov/feature/e-glider-active-electrostatic-flight-for-airless-body-exploration

SPSS and other constructs can then come from them
http://nextbigfuture.com/2016/04/nasa-niac-project-to-place-3d-printers.html
 
Last edited:
Some other musings on
Space solar power
http://eandt.theiet.org/magazine/2014/10/space-based-solar-power.cfm

I like the "staggered slat" idea from here.
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=17902.msg1518926#msg1518926

Similar to SPSS--the idea of solar sails

The E-sail seems more doable
http://nextbigfuture.com/2016/04/nasa-testing-electric-solar-sail-for.html
http://www.nasa.gov/centers/marshal...sting-of-revolutionary-e-sail-technology.html
http://nextbigfuture.com/2016/04/combining-magnetic-and-electric-sails.html

Some want "brane craft"
https://www.nasa.gov/feature/brane-craft
Now that's fine and all--but I think it would make more sense for this to be filled--not with volitile propellants--but with self healing glue for SPSS

Other featherlight concepts
https://www.nasa.gov/feature/light-...probe-for-extreme-environment-exploration-and

This may eliminate the need for orbiting asteroids:
https://www.nasa.gov/feature/e-glider-active-electrostatic-flight-for-airless-body-exploration

SPSS and other constructs can then come from them
http://nextbigfuture.com/2016/04/nasa-niac-project-to-place-3d-printers.html
154064-stop-wait-a-minute-TLDR-gif-Im-gKvo_zpsbrrxfj1s.gif


When you're finished spamming, you can summarize those articles and tell us what they have to do with anything in this thread.
 
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