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Spoilers Arrow - Season 4

If current Arrow had the superhero craziness of Season 4 with the tone/writing style of Season 1/2 (by that I don't mean killing, I mean a focus on Oliver fighting crime instead of his relationship drama with Felicity), Arrow would be a pretty kick ass show, as opposed to the soap opera with occasional superhero bits that its devolved into.
 
I agree. I gave up 2/3 through season one because Ollie was basically the Punisher with a bow and the show seemed to fit into DCs "grim-dark" approach to adapting super-heroes to the screen, which I find tiresome. With the debut of The Flash however, I went back and finished S1 and haven't looked back.

I have to ask, where is the 'grim dark' approach for DC's heroes, where is that standard on the small screen? I will concede on the big screen and I do have issues with that, because Superman should not be dark. But Batman and Suicide Squad should be, and Wonder Woman and Aquaman could perhaps go either way. On the small screen, just in the 21st century, Flash, Smallville, and Supergirl haven't been dark, though there could be dark aspects ascribed to each. It's just been Arrow that has been dark.

I liked the first two seasons best. I liked the 'grim dark' Arrow, which are like the Mike Grell run (though darker) and Andy Diggle's Year One. I thought the show had more direction in the earlier years, particularly with Oliver's list and his mission. But now, it just feels like there is no real direction to the show, that they've ran through too many villains, and the focus is now more on Olicity, which isn't as interesting to me as his original mission.
 
I have to ask, where is the 'grim dark' approach for DC's heroes, where is that standard on the small screen? I will concede on the big screen and I do have issues with that, because Superman should not be dark. But Batman and Suicide Squad should be, and Wonder Woman and Aquaman could perhaps go either way. On the small screen, just in the 21st century, Flash, Smallville, and Supergirl haven't been dark, though there could be dark aspects ascribed to each. It's just been Arrow that has been dark.

Smallville wasn't especially grim, but it wasn't that bright either. It came along before superheroes were cool, and it started out with the intention of revamping the young Clark Kent mythos in a way that expunged all the comic-book elements and appealed to the Dawson's Creek/Roswell audience. So at first it was more an angsty paranormal teen drama than anything else. Heck, it actually had the same composer as The X-Files, using the same moody, eerie atmospheric style, which says something about the tone it was aiming for. It was only in later seasons that it began to play up the comic-book elements more -- partly because Iron Man had made superhero stories legitimate again, partly because they'd never expected the show to run so long and had run out of other stuff to do. So maybe a little more "brightness" came in then, but I recall an entire season where Clark ran around in an all-black variant of his "Blur" costume and angsted about whether he really had a future as a hero. So I wouldn't call Smallville a show that was built around a "bright" approach.

And that illustrated how things have changed. Yes, the current Berlanti shows are lighter, but that's a change from what was favored by DC comics and screen productions for a long time. It doesn't mean the dark tone never existed, it means that it's starting to give way.
 
^^
"Grimdark" is a very vague term, but I don't think angst is sufficient to stick that label even partially onto something, especially Smallville. If it were, Dawson's Creek would be the grittiest show ever.
 
I finally got caught up over the last couple weeks and I've enjoyed the last few episodes a lot.
It was surprising to see them actually tie up the stuff with the League, I expected that to go on a lot longer.
Malcolm going to Dahrk and helping him get William was a nice twist.
I really like Vixen and I hope we see her again. The fact that magic has been such a big part of the season really makes me want to see them bring in even more of the magical characters like Zatanna and Dr. Fate.
I was surprised they actually depowered Dahrk like that so early in the season.
 
Comic Arrow HAS been dark, with storylines like The Longbow Hunters, for example, and Speedy's drug addiction. Yet you get all the silliness of a guy choosing to dress as Robin Hood and fight crime, except it's not that much sillier than a bat, only Ollie is a shameless womaniser and flirt.
 
Smallville wasn't especially grim, but it wasn't that bright either. It came along before superheroes were cool, and it started out with the intention of revamping the young Clark Kent mythos in a way that expunged all the comic-book elements and appealed to the Dawson's Creek/Roswell audience. So at first it was more an angsty paranormal teen drama than anything else. Heck, it actually had the same composer as The X-Files, using the same moody, eerie atmospheric style, which says something about the tone it was aiming for. It was only in later seasons that it began to play up the comic-book elements more -- partly because Iron Man had made superhero stories legitimate again, partly because they'd never expected the show to run so long and had run out of other stuff to do. So maybe a little more "brightness" came in then, but I recall an entire season where Clark ran around in an all-black variant of his "Blur" costume and angsted about whether he really had a future as a hero. So I wouldn't call Smallville a show that was built around a "bright" approach.

And that illustrated how things have changed. Yes, the current Berlanti shows are lighter, but that's a change from what was favored by DC comics and screen productions for a long time. It doesn't mean the dark tone never existed, it means that it's starting to give way.

Christopher,

I did say that Smallville had dark aspects to it. That being said, Smallville was certainly brighter than Arrow Seasons 1 & 2, even at the darkest moments throughout its run. And perhaps its all relative though I would argue that early on in Smallville's run there was brightness, in the lighting, in the costuming, Kent family values, etc., and also darkness with the Luthors and the meteor freaks, the ambiguous mission set forth by Jor-El, and also the angst. But there was also the callbacks to the bright and hopeful Donner universe.

I agree with you that Smallville came out before superheroes were cool in the mainstream. I hadn't thought about the inclusion of more comic book stuff on the show being tied to the success of Iron Man. That's interesting. I just thought it was the creators moving on in the process of getting Clark to Superman. I also thought there were some creative changes behind the scenes that might have been behind that as well. Though when I think about it, arguably Smallville Season 6 (2006) is when the show really got more into the comic book stuff, with the introduction of Green Arrow and that predated Iron Man (2008). Also, in the first five seasons they had threaded comic book heroes throughout the show (Cyborg, Impulse, Aquaman) so that's what made Season 6's "Justice" so very cool, to see them all team up.

Granted the first five seasons the show didn't get too crazy with superheroes and costumes due to the skittishness on the part of the producers and what they perhaps thought of their audience. And I can understand that. I think if they had just made another Superboy show instead of Smallville it probably wouldn't have lasted. The no costumes, teenage romance/angst thing worked, and it brought new fans into the show, IMO. And I thought it was true enough to the spirit of Superman and the Donner films that it kept an old fan like me watching. So, bravo Smallville for pulling off that tough feat.

I don't think the Berlanti's shows are that much brighter (Arrow excepted) than what DC has put out before. I mean we're looking at Wonder Woman, Lois & Clark, Flash (90s), The Adventures of Superboy. Granted, the 90s Flash was inspired by Burton's darker (for that time period) Batman film, but still I can't say it was that dark a show. It's about on the level of today's Flash, from what I can recall. If anything, the new Flash with Zoom and Reverse Flash is probably darker than 90s Flash.

Now when we're talking about their cinematic universe, yeah, from Nolan to Snyder that is dark, and unfortunately so where Superman is concerned. But the Donner films weren't that dark, with Singer's Superman Returns being sort of in the middle with me.
 
Comic Arrow HAS been dark, with storylines like The Longbow Hunters, for example, and Speedy's drug addiction. Yet you get all the silliness of a guy choosing to dress as Robin Hood and fight crime, except it's not that much sillier than a bat, only Ollie is a shameless womaniser and flirt.

Yeah. I agree with a lot of this. Tragedy also befell another Speedy, not to mention what happens to Roy's daughter pre-New 52, and what Green Arrow does as a result of it. Throughout Green Arrow's history, at least since the 70s, there likely have been dark episodes that would be in line with the darker take from this show.

And for Grell's run Oliver wore a hood, not the Robin Hood style hat. He still rocked the facial hair though. And also in the New 52, particularly Jeff Lemire's run, while I can't say its darker than what goes for mainstream comics today, perhaps it is intense with a great new adversary in Komodo (who the television show gave short shrift in Season 3). The New 52 Green Arrow also wore a hood, sans facial hair (or much facial hair).
 
I did say that Smallville had dark aspects to it. That being said, Smallville was certainly brighter than Arrow Seasons 1 & 2, even at the darkest moments throughout its run. And perhaps its all relative though I would argue that early on in Smallville's run there was brightness, in the lighting, in the costuming, Kent family values, etc., and also darkness with the Luthors and the meteor freaks, the ambiguous mission set forth by Jor-El, and also the angst. But there was also the callbacks to the bright and hopeful Donner universe.

Honestly, I don't think it's very useful to try to simplify everything into a binary "light vs. dark" model. Reality isn't defined by opposing extremes, it's mostly about all the stuff in between them.

I agree with you that Smallville came out before superheroes were cool in the mainstream. I hadn't thought about the inclusion of more comic book stuff on the show being tied to the success of Iron Man. That's interesting. I just thought it was the creators moving on in the process of getting Clark to Superman.

Well, the creators -- Alfred Gough and Miles Millar -- had no desire to get Clark to become Superman. They spent seven years having Clark resist his heroic destiny and cling to the life goal of being an obscure, unassuming farmboy, dragging it out to the point that it became impossible to believe their version of Clark Kent had it in him to ever become Superman. It wasn't until they left the show after season 7 that their successors finally, finally broke Clark out of that rut and started to make Smallville into a Superman show in all but name.

So the change in showrunners was part of it; the change in the culture as superhero movies became a hit was another part. The third part was that the show ran twice as long as its creators ever expected, so they exhausted the potential of the "farmboy with paranormal abilities" premise and had little choice but to mine the comics storylines for material. To the point where, quite ridiculously, they'd had Clark form the Justice League, defeat Luthor, and battle Doomsday, Zod, and Darkseid before ever actually donning a cape and calling himself Superman. Even when the show finally tried to become a Superman show, it was hampered by the original mission statement to focus on Clark's pre-Superman life. A lot of fans, critics, and observers argued for years that they should change the title to Metropolis, or just end the show and relaunch it as a straight-up Superman series, but it just clung fanatically to "no flights, no tights" years longer than it made any sense to do so. Which was one of the things that kept it from really working as well as it could have.


Though when I think about it, arguably Smallville Season 6 (2006) is when the show really got more into the comic book stuff, with the introduction of Green Arrow and that predated Iron Man (2008). Also, in the first five seasons they had threaded comic book heroes throughout the show (Cyborg, Impulse, Aquaman) so that's what made Season 6's "Justice" so very cool, to see them all team up.

Well, sure, the cultural shift wasn't about a single movie. Iron Man is a convenient demarcation point between eras, but the transition took a few years surrounding it. And yes, Smallville did tentatively work in other superheroes, but it put them in colorful hoodies rather than going for all-out superhero costumes. They were still embarrassed enough about the comic-book stuff to try to substitute a more "grounded" look. But a few years later they were doing things like Michael Shanks's really cheesy but comics-accurate Hawkman costume.


I don't think the Berlanti's shows are that much brighter (Arrow excepted) than what DC has put out before. I mean we're looking at Wonder Woman, Lois & Clark, Flash (90s), The Adventures of Superboy.

Well, those are from an earlier era. Heck, Wonder Woman came along less than a decade after the Adam West Batman and was developed for television by one of its main writers. The era of "dark" comics pretty much began in the mid-'80s with The Dark Knight Returns and Watchmen, and it came to movies with the Burton Batman to an extent (though the Schumacher Batman films were pure camp). The superhero shows of the '80s and early '90s were still the inheritors of things like the Reeve Superman films -- though some "darker" tones were starting to manifest, there was still a lot of expectation that superhero fare should be fairly comedic or kid-friendly or campy. The modern era of superhero fare being taken seriously pretty much began with Bryan Singer's X-Men, though along with that came a sense that superhero stories should be grounded and downplay the costumes and nicknames and such. But as time went on and superhero stories became more mainstream and acceptable, it became less necessary for them to shy away from the more comic-booky aspects, and now we're at the point where they can just pile on the colorful costumes and nicknames and wild powers and wilder storylines and be unselfconscious about it.

Arrow is that whole process in a nutshell. It started out trying to be very grounded and Nolan-Batman-like, as an "entry-level" show for audiences who weren't immersed in comics lore and culture -- but the cultural climate is different now than it was when Smallville began, so Arrow was able to do in just a couple of seasons what Smallville needed to ease into over a decade, and now we have a totally uninhibited DC multiverse with Lazarus pits and magic totems and telepathic gorillas and alternate universes and everything else.

Granted, the 90s Flash was inspired by Burton's darker (for that time period) Batman film, but still I can't say it was that dark a show. It's about on the level of today's Flash, from what I can recall.

Ooh, talk about shows going through transitions. Flash '90 started out trying to be dark and brooding like Burton Batman -- not really a good fit for the concept -- and due to network pressure, it avoided using comic-book villains. But as the season went on, it both got lighter in tone and started using more supervillains, and by the season finale it was every bit as campy and goofy as Batman '66. It went from one extreme to the other, and it was mainly in the middle of the season that it found the proper balance. The current show has been much better at maintaining a consistent tone and a good balance between the serious stuff and the fun stuff.
 
^
I wasn't defining things as simply dark or light. I'm not sure how you drew that conclusion or why you feel it wasn't useful even if that was what I was doing. All along I was trying to say there were degrees of darkness in even some of might be considered bright or lighter shows, but the earlier seasons of Arrow do stand out for being noticeably darker than other DC shows.

I do think it's an interesting description of Arrow vis-a-vis Smallville you've described, but I would say the process was even more accelerated. I mean Oliver was in costume right off the bat, even if it took several seasons to get the name Green Arrow. And we also had Speedy, Deathstroke, Ravager, and Black Canary by Season 2. So they dived right into it, but like you said the climate had shifted by the time Arrow came out and audiences were more ready for that. Which is amazing because just a few years prior NBC's The Cape sunk like a stone. Granted The Cape's failure could've been due to show quality or not having a built-in fanbase, but I have to wonder if mainstream audiences weren't ready yet to seriously take on a costumed superhero show, with eccentric villains, way back when The Cape premiered.

I do remember some of the fan discussions about changing the show's name to Metropolis, which would've been fine by me. Though I also liked the idea of just making a Smallville a movie franchise, instead of Superman Returns. I thought what they did on a television budget was impressive, I could imagine it would've been really nice with a movie budget. And there was already a built-in fanbase that marketing perhaps could've grown. I do agree with you that adhering the 'no flights, no tights' rule limited the show. I did like the idea of The Blur though, though I wish he had worn a mask so that it could learn he didn't like it or that it made him less trustworthy or something.

One more thing...you mentioned the earlier shows being under the sway of the Reeve-Donner films, well Smallville definitely took inspiration-from design, Annette O'Toole, to guest stars, to the closing music on the series finale from the Reeve-Donner films. And as its been discussed in the Supergirl forum, that show has also taken some cues from the Reeve-Donner films. Smallville was also an inheritor from those films.
 
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I do think it's an interesting description of Arrow vis-a-vis Smallville you've described, but I would say the process was even more accelerated. I mean Oliver was in costume right off the bat, even if it took several seasons to get the name Green Arrow.

But it was a minimal costume -- no fancy body armor, no mask, just a green tunic and hood and some face paint. It was even less "costume-y" than Justin Hartley's Green Arrow hoodie on Smallville. Remember, the Arrow didn't wear a mask until Barry Allen came into the picture. So even there, they started out "grounded" and gradually eased into the more comic-book stuff.


And we also had Speedy, Deathstroke, Ravager, and Black Canary by Season 2.

Not quite. We had Roy as a sidekick, but he didn't adopt a code name until season 3, and it was Arsenal. Thea was nicknamed Speedy in civilian life, but it didn't become her hero name until this season. And Sara Lance wasn't Black Canary, she was the Canary. Laurel became Black Canary to honor Sara after her death.

But yes, season 2 was when Arrow started to bring in more comic-book elements, like the mirakuru. It was also when they introduced Barry Allen and his accident, to set up the Flash spinoff. That's what I was saying -- that the first season started out "entry-level," but once the show was established, the producers didn't waste time phasing in more of the SF/fantasy stuff and laying the groundwork for the all-out, non-watered-down superhero universe we now have.

Which is amazing because just a few years prior NBC's The Cape sunk like a stone. Granted The Cape's failure could've been due to show quality or not having a built-in fanbase, but I have to wonder if mainstream audiences weren't ready yet to seriously take on a costumed superhero show, with eccentric villains, way back when The Cape premiered.

The Cape was just kind of weird. It was fun in some ways, but very clumsy in others. It was an attempt to do a comic-book-style superhero show from people who didn't really understand the idiom as well as the Berlanti people do (although one of its writers, Keto Shimizu, is now a producer on Arrow and was one of the writers on Vixen).

Although it should be noted that a year before The Cape, Berlanti produced No Ordinary Family, another original superhero concept for ABC. That one was a better show, but it didn't last more than a season.

One more thing...you mentioned the earlier shows being under the sway of the Reeve-Donner films, well Smallville definitely took inspiration-from design, Annette O'Toole, to guest stars, to the closing music on the series finale from the Reeve-Donner films. And as its been discussed in the Supergirl forum, that show has also taken some cues from the Reeve-Donner films. Smallville was also an inheritor from those films.

I wasn't being so specific. I was talking about tone and approach in general, the way TV and movie audiences -- and producers -- perceived superhero fiction as a genre.
 
Well, the creators -- Alfred Gough and Miles Millar -- had no desire to get Clark to become Superman. They spent seven years having Clark resist his heroic destiny and cling to the life goal of being an obscure, unassuming farmboy, dragging it out to the point that it became impossible to believe their version of Clark Kent had it in him to ever become Superman. It wasn't until they left the show after season 7 that their successors finally, finally broke Clark out of that rut and started to make Smallville into a Superman show in all but name.

I don't think that's an accurate description of how and why Smallville got made and how it later developed.

Smallville was what it was because the turn of the millennium was a time when angsty teen shows where the big thing that everyone was doing. It would never have been made as a Superman show not because DC didn't believe people would watch "comic booky stuff" on the small screen, but because there were big screen Supermans in development throughout all that time: there was the now infamous Superman Lives, a Batman v Superman film after that, then the JJ Abrams version, and finally Superman Returns. Superman was supposed to be exclusive to the big screen big budget experience.

It wasn't till after Superman Returns failed at the box office that plans for a Superman sequel were cancelled, and DC focused its movie business on the Dark Knight trilogy and development of a Justice League movie. Big screen Superman was effectively sidelined and Smallville was given more free reign to do superhero stuff and tap into Superman lore.

Arrow is that whole process in a nutshell. It started out trying to be very grounded and Nolan-Batman-like, as an "entry-level" show for audiences who weren't immersed in comics lore and culture

In regards to Arrow, again I think it was more grounded at first because it came on the heels of the Dark Knight trilogy which was insanely popular. It wasn't about "people won't watch magic and weird comic-book stuff" it was about "people really like this gritty 'realistic' comic book stuff"
 
In regards to Arrow, again I think it was more grounded at first because it came on the heels of the Dark Knight trilogy which was insanely popular. It wasn't about "people won't watch magic and weird comic-book stuff" it was about "people really like this gritty 'realistic' comic book stuff"
It's what sold the show for me. If someone had told me straight away that it would be a comic show with lots of superheroes in costume and finally magic, I wouldn't have bothered. The trailer and the pilot set a theme that there was an explanation for how Oliver had become what he was now, and that he was special and unique. And I was eager to find out his backstory. I watched the trailer alone countless times, waiting for October to arrive. That's how impatient I was.

Lots of posts have been written about how Laurel and Thea and Roy were able to get to the same level in considerably less time and that the addition of Sara meant that Oliver was not so special and unique anymore. Sometimes he now feels like a guest actor in his own show. This is not what it should feel like. And all those team fights in warehouses look the same after a while. Certainly not exciting anymore. I'd rather see more Oliver doing parcour. Showing his skills.

I once read a great blog entry that mused if something happened to the original idea, as the pilot promised some things that never were touched on again - Oliver's relationship with Raissa for example, or the scene where he almost killed his mother at night. I certainly would have liked to see more about this part of his personality and wouldn't have minded the occasional "You have failed this city" thrown in. I don't know why everyone hated that line so much?

Diggle was a great addition, but in general I prefer my superheroes being alone, and not telling everyone that they are superheroes. Now that everyone knows his secret - where is the mystery? The danger of being found out? I loved the scenes when Oliver had to find excuses for suddenly disappearing, and I love when he has to explain sudden injuries he got overnight. You can add humor in such scenes if done right.

And yes, I also think that Felicity in the beginning, used sparingly, was good, but there is something of having too much of a good thing, which is not good.

I am a John Barrowman fan, without him I never would have heard or cared about this show. But even as a fan I have to agree with those that think they run out of excuses to keep Malcolm Merlyn around, and there is one twist too many. Which is another reason why I like the first season best. I would have loved if he had continued as the wealthy businessman, doing bad things at night, instead of having been outed to the world and forced into hiding. There is no story to tell about him anymore. None that is believeable at least.

Even the big fight between him and Oliver fell totally flat with me as I was convinced the whole time that it was all fake, only acted out for Nyssa. Are you really telling me that the Malcolm from season 1 would have been beaten that easily? He didn't put up much of a fight at all.

So I was convinced it was fake - until the end at least, then I didn't know what to think anymore.

I continue to watch because I love all the actors and the behind-the-scenes stuff and that they really seem to be a family and have fun on set and at conventions and because I still am interested in what is happening, but I am not as intrigued by the show and the stories as I was in the beginning. It has not often happened that I watched the same episode again and again, while impatiently waiting for the next. I can't describe what it was, the music, the actors, it somehow drew you in and made you breathless. Since Moira is gone, it hasn't been the same for me. Another huge mistake I think.

It's not that it was dark (I don't like the Dark Knight trilogy) but that it tried to be realistic. I don't mind superpowers or other things, as long as they are at least halfway explained but magic? You lose me there. I didn't like it in Stargate and I don't like it here. Because there is no way how you can fight magic. All your usual fighting techniques and bullets are meaningless when someone simply can throw out their arm and make you fly through the air. You can only fight it with more magic. Which means that out of nowhere, Nyssa comes up with a thing we never have heard about before.

They used to call that Deus Ex Machina. No, I don't like that.

And what is even the official explanation for the thing Oliver suddenly had in the past in his prison cell, when Shado appeared in his dream? I mean, where did it really come from? Am I supposed to believe it fell out of thin air? I can't do that. I don't believe in supernatural stuff at all.
 
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Magic isn't automatically a deus ex machina. A DEM is a solution that's introduced in the climax to resolve a problem after not being set up earlier in the story. Anything that is established earlier on is not a deus ex machina, no matter how divine or supernatural it is. If they'd given a plot a magical solution back in season 1 when everything was grounded, that would've been a DEM. But the franchise has spent the past three seasons gradually phasing in the wilder ideas, and they began laying pipe for magic back in season 3 when the Lazarus Pit was introduced and when Ollie started talking about having seen things he couldn't explain. So they've done due diligence in setting these things up before they began using them to resolve stories.
 
I still think it was rather convenient that the stuff to heal Thea suddenly appeared. Why did Malcolm not know about it existing? I thought he knows everything? He always claimed there was no way to heal her, and that's why he was so reluctant to put her into the pit in the first place.
If they had talked about this option earlier, and searched for it for a few episodes maybe because it was hard to get by, I would see it differently.
 
To be fair, for Malcolm "I'm the only one that knows about this and i don't want to pay the price for it." and "There is no solution that i know of - and i know everything." are roughly equivalent.
 
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