Spoilers Supergirl - Season 1

[Guy Gardener]

CATCO is an upside down model. Women are given the unfair bias and advantage because Cat prefers it that way. On CATCO soil, it's not a mans world, so feminism, if it's really about equality is a sociological construct to stop the oppression and penalization of men by Cat Grant.

When Kara watches Game of Thrones, like we saw her doing yesterday, does she cover her eyes for all the murder and rape? I mean if Supergirl is so sweet and innocent, why is she watching such unrelentingly violent programming?

UM?

When network TV reruns old Game of thrones do they censor all the sex and violence like they used to do with the Sopranos? Is that what Kara watches or is she a hell of lot darker than we think that she can eat popcorn while watching a guy getting castrated without running away and hiding in a washing up basket for a month?

In my mind, all Supergirl should be watching on TV is (the original) the Sound of Music in loop all night long, or Glee. Lots and lots of Glee. (Yes I know. Doppelgangers. Hush child.)

 

[The Old Mixer]

Trek BBS Drinking Game rule #376: Drink every time Christopher references the Superman radio show to make a point.

 

[Guy Gardener]

2088 episodes.

Hmmm.

That sounds like more than a couple week ends to catch up on what I've missed.

 

[Christopher]

Trek BBS Drinking Game rule #376: Drink every time Christopher references the Superman radio show to make a point.

Well, it's surprisingly topical these days.

 

[USS Triumphant]

The Odo's Combadge effect.

You think that's bad? In a recent novel, they had him shapeshift into a small ship complete with warp capability.

And the Kryptonians all died with their planet (except a bunch of criminals and two children/teenager).

We don't actually know that, and in fact, from what we've seen on the show (aliens in Kryptonian prison, Kara mentioning having been to 12 different inhabited planets, etc.) it seems REALLY unlikely to me that no one would have been offworld when Krypton bit the big one.

She is the best of both worlds.

Hannah Montana? Well, Kara does come in like a wrecking ball, sometimes....

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

I disagree.
It would be poor writing to have him "turn bad" because he was rejected

In reality, individuals have murdered others for less. Committed suicide or murder/suicide for less. People tend to seek whatever gives them an immediate sense of satisfaction, particularly in this weaker, expectation-of-coddling society of today. Winn is a weak, insecure person, so he's most susceptible to being corrupted--especially if he feels he will never get what he desires, and no action on his part (while relatively normal) brings him one step closer to his goal.

The episode did not repeatedly refer to Winn's similarity to his father for no reason--I doubt its a false lead, unless poor writers drop the ball they deliberately put into play.

and it would essentially confirm the "if your parents are evil, you'll be evil" thing Toyman was trying to sell in this episode. That would just suck, and go against the more optimistic tone of the show.

The show is not The Super Friends or Power Rangers. In this current DC superhero landscape, Supergirl needs to have some fire and backbone, otherwise, it risks being just another forgettable fantasy series. That said, I repeat, that the episode repeatedly--deliberately hammered the father-son connection, because life is not all sunshine and daises.

There's plenty of drama left without turning Winn evil, or his continued pining for Kara.

It cannot be ignored; he declared his longstanding love for her, so that cannot be swept under the carpet, nor whatever amount of father is in the son. If Winn turned against SG, there's nothing wrong with that, and it plays into his knee-jerk anger (when he chewed Kara out about relationships) when he did not get what he desires. The seeds have been planted. If the producers are smart, they will let that seed sprout.

A lot of people hate it (if you look at imdb f.e.) and call it feminist propaganda etc. Well for some a female lead role is feminist propaganda.

The more reasoned complaints are not all unjustified. As noted days ago, Cat's "identity" speeches....Lucy's "kickass women instead of old white men" and her "i'm not asking you" crack at James...the audience is beaten over the head with the girl power / borderline misandry. Its almost a weekly thing, and its tired. The audience gets the show's political position, but typical of reactionary politics, its advocates fail to understand that there's no promotion of women or power in Cat's seeming reverse discrimination, or constantly ranting about her status in life--often at the expense of another group.

Additionally, it was not necessary to go overboard with the FBI agent's aggression routine--again, that is the political agenda of the series. It seems those behind Supergirl are indeed reactionary--in a juvenile way, as it appears they believe growth = misandry (or borderline). If one compares the women of SG to say, Criminal Minds over its time, one will see far more realistic, considered characterization with the female characters--who also happen to be in different stages of their personal & professional lives. There's no misandry present in CM, and yet the female characters are more compelling in their development--men are not scapegoats for all of their problems, nor do they need to disrespect men in order to be respected. Keep in mind, Criminal Minds is a series with a number of female executive/producer/writers responsible for that--or more to the point, they do not have the need to do what some see in SG.

 

[Guy Gardener]

In the pilot Winn asked Kara out on a date.

The first thing we saw was him making a big baller move.

She misunderstood, because Kara is a dating moron.

Then the sweet nerd he was into admits to being a god from another planet, as the most handsome man on this planet sets his sights on Kara as well.

The kid needed time to pivot.

10 episodes later, a month or two in their time, he lunges at her with an open mouth and declares his love, insisting that friendship was no longer an option.

It's all or nothing.

If she says "No" then he has to leave, or sit 8 feet away wearing his best bitchface totally silent for the rest of his life as far as she is concerned. Which is shit. Getting transfered to another floor or another buildings seems easier.

Thing is that Supergirl is going to say "No", and then her best friend is going to walk away, which will rip her in two, so Kara is going to wonder if relenting to his blackmail, if letting him see her naked now and then, is worth getting her friend back. Laying back, shutting her eyes and thinking of their friendship, as he tries to pleasure her with all his homo sapien strength but with regret Kara must admit that all his blunt force feels like, is a butterfly gracefully landing on her labia, and skittering around. Yup.

Lose/lose.

(Yes, the Kryptonite training room. I know.)

 

[dahj]

The episode did not repeatedly refer to Winn's similarity to his father for no reason--

It also clearly stressed the difference between them.
Winn wants to be a good guy. He has been nothing but a good guy so far. Sure he had his selfish and whiny moments, but so does everyone, showing him overcome that and grow as a person would be a better arc for the character.

Supergirl needs to have some fire and backbone, otherwise, it risks being just another forgettable fantasy series.

Again, I disagree.
"Good guy turns bad because girl doesn't like him" is cheap, not "risky" writing.

 

[Guy Gardener]

It's a step below, good guy turns bad to turn girl on.

Currently Bizarro doesn't look like Kara/Supergirl.

But will she?

Bizarro Supergirl might be into Winn?

Also if Winn becomes the new Toyman, he's going to build himself a Robotic Kara to be his girlfriend. It's just a question of if he wants a Robotic Supergirl too? Either as a separate/extra fembot, or if his droid will have a dual identity like the real Kara.

Meanwhile there's Kryptonite that alters personalities and crates duplicates/splits psyches.

Although there are two nuclear options open to Winn immediately without waiting for super science to drop something in his lap, and that is to date Cat, or sleep with Alex.

 

[ihno]

We had the robotic girlfriend at Buffy already. That would be lame.

 

[Guy Gardener]

I still look that girl up on IMDB now and then to see if the world had accepted her as fantastic yet.

(I'm doing it again now.)

"Sigh"

Still no activtivity since 2011.

 

[davejames]

The more reasoned complaints are not all unjustified. As noted days ago, Cat's "identity" speeches....Lucy's "kickass women instead of old white men" and her "i'm not asking you" crack at James...the audience is beaten over the head with the girl power / borderline misandry. Its almost a weekly thing, and its tired. The audience gets the show's political position, but typical of reactionary politics, its advocates fail to understand that there's no promotion of women or power in Cat's seeming reverse discrimination, or constantly ranting about her status in life--often at the expense of another group.

Eh, I don't think it's "reverse discrimination" or "misandry" to point out the very real and true fact that white males in this country (whether they're aware of it or not) have a huge societal advantage over every other group out there, and that women and minorities often have to work a whole lot harder to reach the same level. Or that, as numerous studies have shown, there are built in biases that those groups have to struggle against (in both the workplace and elsewhere) that white males aren't confronted with nearly as much.

It may not be something pointed out on a lot of other TV shows, but that doesn't mean it's a problem that doesn't exist or shouldn't be pointed out at all. And to me Supergirl seems like as appropriate a place as any to do that.

 

[Christopher]

Eh, I don't think it's "reverse discrimination" or "misandry" to point out the very real and true fact that white males in this country (whether they're aware of it or not) have a huge societal advantage over every other group out there, and that women and minorities often have to work a whole lot harder to reach the same level. Or that, as numerous studies have shown, there are built in biases that those groups have to struggle against (in both the workplace and elsewhere) that white males aren't confronted with nearly as much.

Right. It's so pathetic for the beneficiaries of privilege to claim they're being victimized just because they don't get to monopolize their privileges anymore. Sharing our toys with others is something we all should've learned to do in kindergarten. For grown adults to object to it is pitiful.

Besides, no group stays on top forever. White people will be a minority in the US within 50 years. The only people who feel threatened by that are people who've invested in maintaining a social order that harms minorities. If we instead build a social order where equality is guaranteed for all, then nobody has to feel threatened by losing majority status. Equality benefits everyone.

I'm a writer who happens to be a heterosexual white male. Sometimes, when looking for prospective markets for my original short fiction, I come across listings for anthologies or publishing lines that are exclusively for women or non-Caucasians or LGBT people. At first, I may feel a twinge of displeasure that I'm being excluded for simply belonging to a certain category. But then I remember that that's something those groups have experienced their entire lives, far more than I ever will, so I have no business complaining or feeling threatened. As someone who happens to have been born into the privileged group, I have more than my fair share of opportunities already. I'm not being attacked just because other kinds of people are being given the same chances.

 

[Thestral]

It also clearly stressed the difference between them.
Winn wants to be a good guy. He has been nothing but a good guy so far. Sure he had his selfish and whiny moments, but so does everyone, showing him overcome that and grow as a person would be a better arc for the character.



Again, I disagree.
"Good guy turns bad because girl doesn't like him" is cheap, not "risky" writing.

Exactly this. Supergirl is an optimistic show, moreso than any of the Arrowverse series and many (most?) dramas on TV. Showing Winn deal with rejection, grow from it, and build a friendship on better ground would be the interesting route. And who knows, some ways down the line maybe what he wants will turn out.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Showing Winn deal with rejection, grow from it, and build a friendship on better ground would be the interesting route.

I like this idea.

I also like the idea of Winn having to overcome some connection with his father. As discussed, maybe Winn is some sort of sleeper, or a clone, or (gasp) a toy.

The two go hand-in-hand, really, in terms of conquering personal demons and not succumbing to temptations, perhaps with a touch of nature versus nurture.

I just really hope that they avoid some cliché like Winn sacrificing himself. It would be much more interesting for him to have to face the pain of rejection and possibly also of having a tainted past, and then live with it all as a good person.

 

[JD]

In reality, individuals have murdered others for less. Committed suicide or murder/suicide for less. People tend to seek whatever gives them an immediate sense of satisfaction, particularly in this weaker, expectation-of-coddling society of today. Winn is a weak, insecure person, so he's most susceptible to being corrupted--especially if he feels he will never get what he desires, and no action on his part (while relatively normal) brings him one step closer to his goal.

The episode did not repeatedly refer to Winn's similarity to his father for no reason--I doubt its a false lead, unless poor writers drop the ball they deliberately put into play.

The reason they kept bring up the similarities between Winn and his father was to show what he is trying not to become, what he is fighting against, not what he will become.

I have watched six episodes last year in summer but didn't watch any more. You better ask: what did not insult it. I remember the most idiotic things. I may be wrong in details :

- Like this Oktavia f.e. (I checked her name) She lived for sixteen years in a cupboard or under the floor. First thing she does when she arrives on earth is to jump in the nearest lake. Where did she learn to swim? Do they have a pool on board, which she visited secretly at night? I thought they were short of oxygen.

- They send 100 young people - their genetic future - down to earth after a nucelar holocaust but they forget to give them a communication device or a contermination meter.

- How were those juvenile deliquents able to act like lifelong pathfinders anyway? They were all prisoners (it's a tiny space station but enough space for prisoncells I guess) but on earth they can build camps.

- Why would people that are forced to live on a spacestation kill the technical personal? In one of those episodes the cliche evil guy wanted to kill the main doctor of the station. Who would do the doctor work then? One of the next generation? ups, no, they were sent to earth to die.

- And they have no air on their station but they execute people by throwing them out of the airlock? Still enough air for that I guess.

There were so many things that didn't make any sense. That show was obvioulsy written for the sole purpose of showing beautiful 20 year old (playing even younger ones) running though woods and crying about their relationsship to their parents and having some love drama.
So after six or seven episodes I lost interest to watch more of it.

Comparing to that Supergirl is pure intellectual gold.

Well there's your problem right there. It started out OK, with some issues like you pointed out, but has gone on to become absolutely fricking amazing.
It's moved way beyond pretty much all of the kind of issues you mentioned.
It is one of the most dark, and grim shows on TV right now, I won't deny that, but if you can deal with that it really is great. I admit, I don't always like that kind of stuff, but The 100 is good enough that I can still enjoy it.

 

[Arrrrgggh]

I'm a writer who happens to be a heterosexual white male. Sometimes, when looking for prospective markets for my original short fiction, I come across listings for anthologies or publishing lines that are exclusively for women or non-Caucasians or LGBT people. At first, I may feel a twinge of displeasure that I'm being excluded for simply belonging to a certain category. But then I remember that that's something those groups have experienced their entire lives...

Really? Other than stuff published by hate groups, please name a single mainstream publishing house that has a "only hetreosexual white Caucasian male writers accepted" policy.

This victim complex is really ridiculous in this day and age. With very, very few exceptions, the only reasons minorities don't show up in various fields is because they're not bothering with it. No one in Hollywood is saying "sorry, we don't do colored films here," corporate America doesn't have a "nope, no chicks allowed to be CEOs sowwies" bylaw, and Washington D.C. doesn't have a "sorry, no queers allowed to run for President" law in place. It's preposterous. If white heterosexual males have any advantage it's that those who do get far in lfie didn't inherently sabotage themselves by giving up before even bothering to try. You know, just like all the minorities, homosexuals, and women out there who've gotten far in life haven't either.

And before you make assumptions, which I'm sure you already have, I'm a woman with a black mother and Latin father, and a very well-paying job. So I do have some idea of where I'm coming from here.

 

[Christopher]

All I will say in reply to post #1477 is that the desire to shame and condemn other groups for any reason is destructive and I want no part in anything so juvenile. We all thrive when we work together, combining our energies constructively, and we only weaken ourselves when we work against each other, canceling out each other's energies.

 

[davejames]

This victim complex is really ridiculous in this day and age. With very, very few exceptions, the only reasons minorities don't show up in various fields is because they're not bothering with it. No one in Hollywood is saying "sorry, we don't do colored films here," corporate America doesn't have a "nope, no chicks allowed to be CEOs sowwies" bylaw, and Washington D.C. doesn't have a "sorry, no queers allowed to run for President" law in place. It's preposterous. If white heterosexual males have any advantage it's that those who do get far in lfie didn't inherently sabotage themselves by giving up before even bothering to try. You know, just like all the minorities, homosexuals, and women out there who've gotten far in life haven't either.

Riiiiight. I'm sure the only reason women make up only 4% of CEOs of Fortune 500 companies is because there are just aren't enough women out there who are as motivated and hard working as the 96% of male CEOs.

The fact is there doesn't have to be a policy against these things because the people in charge just naturally hire and gravitate toward those of their own race all on their own. Which is why we see studies like the ones where people with a white sounding name often get hired over those with a black sounding name, despite having the exact same resume.

 

[Christopher]

The fact is there doesn't have to be a policy against these things because the people in charge just naturally hire and gravitate toward those of their own race all on their own. Which is why we see studies like the ones where people with a white sounding name often get hired over those with a black sounding name, despite having the exact same resume.

Exactly. If the bias were overt, it wouldn't be so hard to overcome -- in part because so many people fail to recognize it exists and thus buy into the fiction that the only reason anyone could fail is because they don't try.