Kirk put on his alternate toupee for the proposal.
"The Holiest Thing" Released
- Thread starter GSchnitzer
- Start date
At the same time, what each fanfilm group wants to see and what they manage to produce are two different things. NV/PII has its share of episodes that were never finished and one can infer that they suffer from similar qualitative issues as Holiest Thing. Bread and Savagery is still planned to be released, right? That was shot over three years ago.
lol, he kinda looked, sounded, and behaved like Wesley Crusher when he proposed.
I don't consider "The Conscience of the King" to be depicting Kirk's interest in Lenore as head-over heals romantic, and neither was it so from Lenore's perspective. Kirk's interest in Lenore was motivated in the first place by his desire to get close to her father on suspicion that he could be Kodos, whereas Lenore's interest in Kirk was in order to lure him into her trap. Kirk probably felt something for Lenore, but he never allowed those feelings to cloud his judgment or get in the way of his responsibilities. That makes "The Conscience of the King" by far the most sophisticated of the three in terms of its approach to Kirk's character, and not really an episode depicting Kirk in love. I also consider it to be the best of those three overall.
On the other hand, "The City on the Edge of Forever" is a very fine Kirk-in-love story, and it shows the romance between Kirk and Edith developing over a period of weeks, rather than hours or even days.
By the end of "Conscience", it's made clear that Kirk genuinely did fall in love with Lenore:
So "Conscience" resembles Voyager's "Counterpoint" here: in both episodes, the captain falls for somebody while simultaneously playing that person -- and playing that person hard -- for a captainly advantage. The problem with "Conscience" is that, whereas "Counterpoint" does a very good job selling that romance, "Conscience" sells it entirely on the strength of the infamous observation deck scene ("All this power, surging and throbbing, yet under control"), and I, for one, am not buying. That's the weakness in "Conscience," which is a superb episode overall, and it's a weakness "The Holiest Thing" deftly avoids. (I'm sure no one on STNV's staff will be mad at me for saying that, overall, I still think "Conscience" is a better episode .)
You're right that "City on the Edge" is a good deal more plausible for allowing Kirk several days (I don't recall it being weeks) to fall in love with Edith Keeler. But "The Holiest Thing" does that, too -- allowing three days for Carol and Kirk to fall deeply in love on the way home to Starbase.
A
Amaris
Guest
Firstly, thank you to the folks at NV/PII for their hard work. It really does show.
The Great:
The special effects for this episode are terrific! I'm really digging the refit-ish Enterprise. Along those same lines, the planets look realistic, the CGI model effects for the shuttles/terraforming station/etc., all look highly polished and well done.
The Good:
Jacy King did a fine job as Carol Marcus. There were some cringe moments, but for the most part she was solid.
Carl Sheldon still catches me off guard at first glance. I believe, for a moment, that he really is an elderly James Doohan, and I really like that. I think he does a fine job as a bookend here.
John Kelley, once again, is my favorite character. He plays McCoy with echoes of his gruff bedside manner and witticisms, but spins his own look and feel, and for me it works nicely. I hope he continues to work as McCoy for a long time.
The Meh:
The script was kind of okay. I could see where they wanted to go, and what they wanted to accomplish, but the dialogue didn't feel entirely natural. There was a lot of canon service here, which is okay if it feels natural, but it all felt stilted, kind of like a straight-to-DVD Christian movie that shoehorns scripture into the film without the right context or mood to support it. There were other moments where the actors were clearly speaking in a way their characters wouldn't, which isn't good.
I bet you Brian Gross is a great guy, and seems to have real talent, but as Kirk, I just didn't feel it. Maybe it's in there somewhere, but in this episode, he didn't "sound" like Kirk. The gravitas and presence of Kirk just isn't there, at least in this episode. Someone ( I think @PattyW ), said that Brian's had Kirk moments in other shows. If he has, then I want to see that here. As it stands, not yet, but I am hoping to see it happen.
The Not-So-Good:
The romance between Kirk and Carol Marcus seemed forced. It was completely motivated by "we have to get them together because they're supposed to be together," which is okay as long as the relationship has some chemistry. I just really did not feel that, and I'm a 'shipper, so you know I'm already rooting for them. I'm rooting for Kirk and Spock, too, but that's another story entirely.
There were some significant audio issues, of which I'm sure you're all aware. It wasn't always distracting, but there were times when it really got in the way, and pulled me right out of the episode. Around the 40 minute mark, you can hear Brandon Stacy's voice echo, and the distinct sound of boot-steps on the stage. The stage echo can also be heard at the 42 minute mark when Uhura speaks. There's not much you could do about it at this point, but I figured I'd mention it anyway.
The Ferengi. Ugh. Sorry guys, but it was a really sore sticking point for me. The Ferengi didn't work for me at all. Klingons? Eh, maybe. Romulans? Sure! But Ferengi? No, no no no no. No Ferengi. It totally changed the tone of the episode, and the tone was rather discordant and flat. It also didn't help that the Ferengi ship looked like it was bobbing on waves as they spoke to Captain Kirk, and while the makeup seemed well done (nice work all around on makeup, guys), the tone was a shift to modern Trek without benefit of an organic growth. It just appears out of nowhere like a glass and steel skyscraper in a wood hut village.
All of that said, I did enjoy the episode, and I appreciate all of the hard work you folks put into making these. I am a fan, you guys are fans, and I think these episodes really are labors of love, of that I have no question.
The Great:
The special effects for this episode are terrific! I'm really digging the refit-ish Enterprise. Along those same lines, the planets look realistic, the CGI model effects for the shuttles/terraforming station/etc., all look highly polished and well done.
The Good:
Jacy King did a fine job as Carol Marcus. There were some cringe moments, but for the most part she was solid.
Carl Sheldon still catches me off guard at first glance. I believe, for a moment, that he really is an elderly James Doohan, and I really like that. I think he does a fine job as a bookend here.
John Kelley, once again, is my favorite character. He plays McCoy with echoes of his gruff bedside manner and witticisms, but spins his own look and feel, and for me it works nicely. I hope he continues to work as McCoy for a long time.
The Meh:
The script was kind of okay. I could see where they wanted to go, and what they wanted to accomplish, but the dialogue didn't feel entirely natural. There was a lot of canon service here, which is okay if it feels natural, but it all felt stilted, kind of like a straight-to-DVD Christian movie that shoehorns scripture into the film without the right context or mood to support it. There were other moments where the actors were clearly speaking in a way their characters wouldn't, which isn't good.
I bet you Brian Gross is a great guy, and seems to have real talent, but as Kirk, I just didn't feel it. Maybe it's in there somewhere, but in this episode, he didn't "sound" like Kirk. The gravitas and presence of Kirk just isn't there, at least in this episode. Someone ( I think @PattyW ), said that Brian's had Kirk moments in other shows. If he has, then I want to see that here. As it stands, not yet, but I am hoping to see it happen.
The Not-So-Good:
The romance between Kirk and Carol Marcus seemed forced. It was completely motivated by "we have to get them together because they're supposed to be together," which is okay as long as the relationship has some chemistry. I just really did not feel that, and I'm a 'shipper, so you know I'm already rooting for them. I'm rooting for Kirk and Spock, too, but that's another story entirely.
There were some significant audio issues, of which I'm sure you're all aware. It wasn't always distracting, but there were times when it really got in the way, and pulled me right out of the episode. Around the 40 minute mark, you can hear Brandon Stacy's voice echo, and the distinct sound of boot-steps on the stage. The stage echo can also be heard at the 42 minute mark when Uhura speaks. There's not much you could do about it at this point, but I figured I'd mention it anyway.
The Ferengi. Ugh. Sorry guys, but it was a really sore sticking point for me. The Ferengi didn't work for me at all. Klingons? Eh, maybe. Romulans? Sure! But Ferengi? No, no no no no. No Ferengi. It totally changed the tone of the episode, and the tone was rather discordant and flat. It also didn't help that the Ferengi ship looked like it was bobbing on waves as they spoke to Captain Kirk, and while the makeup seemed well done (nice work all around on makeup, guys), the tone was a shift to modern Trek without benefit of an organic growth. It just appears out of nowhere like a glass and steel skyscraper in a wood hut village.
All of that said, I did enjoy the episode, and I appreciate all of the hard work you folks put into making these. I am a fan, you guys are fans, and I think these episodes really are labors of love, of that I have no question.
Patty's got it absolutely right. It's the director's job to bring out the actor's performance the way he wants it.
Can Brian Gross bring out a ''real'' Kirk performance? He's already done it in the ''Going Boldly'' short, he was commanding and magnetic. I see it many times in Mind-Sifter and this film, but I agree that the actors sometimes make too many ''modern'' acting choices. But then again Michele Specht and Kipleigh Brown do it also on STC.
My only other comment is I find the scènes a bit too brightly-lit, TOS always had various levels of shadows and lighting in their set-ups.
Gotta mention the CG fx by Tobias and Pony was awesome, as always.
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We can nitpick these things until the cows come home, not that there's necessarily anything wrong with that, but I enjoyed this overall. That's pretty much my main concern most days. 
I really liked Jacy King as Carol.
I really liked Jacy King as Carol.
Maybe, I did not think of that
I saw this as being uncertain for the first time in his life, will she marry me or not?
As for the ring, well I jokingly thought Kirk keeps a gross on hand for these moments ... sure I'll be back baby
I agree I enjoyed it ( BTW Happy birthday )We can nitpick these things until the cows come home, not that there's necessarily anything wrong with that, but I enjoyed this overall. That's pretty much my main concern most days.
I really liked Jacy King as Carol.
They really didn't but there was a novel that shows a young David running away from Klingons
I don't think a 60's feel is what this production is trying to accomplish, because really, the only 60's aspect of it is the Enterprise set, everything else about it is current. It's sort of a shame that they are tied down to that set with push buttons and tape diskettes , because it really doesn't fit in with the other production elements.
I don't disagree. But I will say that James Cawley seems determined to make the scenes shot on the Enterprise feel like the original show, right down to the lighting of the sets. It is, however, at odds with the other elements presented in the show.
I think we might not have thought through Dr. Marcus' wardrobe enough. The script had a comment:
"INT. MARCUS' CABIN SCENE 62
"Close Up of Marcus, who is livid. She is back in her duty uniform.
As she speaks, she turns, and we see Kirk is in the room."
So not only is she in her uniform, she's back in her uniform. This means that she was in it, was in something else, and then was back in it.
Among my numerous pre-production script review comments I made to James was this:
"What precisely is Marcus’ duty uniform? Is it Starfleet? Is it some Federation science thing?"
As I recollect, her high-necked tunic was a Bill Theiss uniform design for the ill-fated Star Trek Phase II series. It's even in standard Starfleet Sciences blue. So we worked in this costume design, but didn't use a Starfleet sciences patch on it. I think you're right: with the other team members not wearing something similar, it's a bit confusing what her tunic does or doesn't represent.
And yes, one of the fixes/changes we made from the ill-fated release of the episode two years ago was a slightly different ending. To make a long story short, we had to green screen shots of Brian and Jacy in Los Angeles and put them on top of static plates we grabbed of our Kirks Quarters set in Ticonderoga. .
I liked it, simply for the fact that for a non-native speaker it was an easy enough story to follow without (yet) subtitles. The plot and the conflicts between people were understandable and I could relate to it. A lot of the other stories (Kitumba for example) with all their complicated politics had often lots of actors standing around talking important plot bits without anything happening, and then I easily get lost. I had the same problem with the recent Doctor Who finale which I found boring while many others found it very good.
But I take a Kirk who struggles with his command and the sacrifices it means over any space battle. And I'm sure when he shared his thoughts with Carol that it was not the first time he had them. Only so far the right woman hadn't come along.
I agree that the announcement of the pregnancy maybe was a bit much, surely we could have filled in with our imagination there, but love at first sight and marriage after only two months hasn't been unheard of in the real world. It happens.
I also liked the attempts of humor and a bit of lightness. A bit of humor is always appreciated. It made me chuckle.
I also got a good chuckle out of the scene where Carol bumps into a half naked Kirk because it reminded me of a similar scene in STC. And real life spouses both times even. Which only proves that whichever universe Kirk is in, some things never change
Just to nitpick something that hasn't been mentioned yet - I found the rescuing scene a bit odd. After the preview, I had hoped for it to be more - heroic? It took way too long for Kirk to look around to find Carole if he knows he has only seconds. Also shouldn't he have at least visibly gulped a bit of air in before he went down, like a diver? In the end it looked more like she rescued him.
(I also could have sworn that in the preview instead of "You're welcome" he had said "Let's never do that again" but then I realized I was mixing it up with the Star Trek Beyond trailer...)
But I take a Kirk who struggles with his command and the sacrifices it means over any space battle. And I'm sure when he shared his thoughts with Carol that it was not the first time he had them. Only so far the right woman hadn't come along.
I agree that the announcement of the pregnancy maybe was a bit much, surely we could have filled in with our imagination there, but love at first sight and marriage after only two months hasn't been unheard of in the real world. It happens.
I also liked the attempts of humor and a bit of lightness. A bit of humor is always appreciated. It made me chuckle.
I also got a good chuckle out of the scene where Carol bumps into a half naked Kirk because it reminded me of a similar scene in STC. And real life spouses both times even. Which only proves that whichever universe Kirk is in, some things never change
Just to nitpick something that hasn't been mentioned yet - I found the rescuing scene a bit odd. After the preview, I had hoped for it to be more - heroic? It took way too long for Kirk to look around to find Carole if he knows he has only seconds. Also shouldn't he have at least visibly gulped a bit of air in before he went down, like a diver? In the end it looked more like she rescued him.
(I also could have sworn that in the preview instead of "You're welcome" he had said "Let's never do that again" but then I realized I was mixing it up with the Star Trek Beyond trailer...)
Kirk put on his alternate toupee for the proposal.
I think that is why she turned him down!
At least Jim tried to do the right thing this time and purposed, instead of just leaving his space seed spread across the galaxy.
(this video is part one of six)
Also I am a little disturbed by how insensitive and opportunistic he is in taking advantage of Carol’s emotional state. She has just lost all her friends, is clearly in grief, and Jim is so quick to bed her that he does not even wait for the conference call with the admiral to end before he starts striping off!
Apart from this I really enjoyed this episode.
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I can answer this from the costumer's POV. James Cawley stated that Marcus was a civilian scientist. He loved the Phase II women's tunic design and thought it would "look cool" on a 23rd century scientist. It's "Starfleet blue" only because that's the color of the prototype and James wanted it copied exactly. I recreated this and put her in the Theiss-inspired mini skirt to show she was a kick ass scientist confident in herself as a woman. The only "costume change" that was supposed to happen was when she changed into her dress for her "date" with Kirk.
I wasn't the on-set wardrobe person, however. For some unfathomable reason they put her in Starfleet pants and boots for her first scenes working in her lab. Combining that with the "Phase II" tunic, it's hard not to believe she's a member of Starfleet...and maybe the "broach" is a alternate "insignia" for a branch of research scientists. (and therefore, she had civilian folks working under her). (Otherwise we would have to believe that the "Starfleet pants" aren't actually uniform pants and are just commonly worn by 23rd century people - like bell bottoms or khakis.) Unfortunately, IMO, that brings into question her actual motives with Kirk. Maybe the reason she got pregnant is she planned it all along - what with changing from her Starfleet "uniform pants and boots" when she gets on the Enterprise into a mini skirt and thigh high velvet hooker boots that she somehow got out of the Enerprise's quartermaster. (or, perhaps, borrowed out of the ship's theater's costume closet).
Don't jump on me. I'm just pointing out that costume developments can, and should, follow character development to help the audience along. (as happened with "Alersa" in "Enemy: Starfleet").
The short answer was Marcus was supposed to be a civilian scientist.The "duty uniform" remark was a short way of saying "what she wears to work".
The choices of on-set wardrobe made me question whether that changed on set just like the rest of you are wondering. I'm thinking only James Cawley can say whether Marcus changed into a Starfleet scientist or if it was just a un-thought-out choice of the wardrobe/director. ("No! She get's blown up! Put her in pants so it's easier to blow her up!") Either way, it adds something else to why she doesn't like Starfleet.
That's how it looked to me, too.
It was a plot contrivance to introduce a family connection through the Genesis project in Trek II, one that was intended to lead to something more substantial as David would have hooked up with Saavik, right? It was kind of Decker and Ilia over again until they decided to just kill David off in TSFS. I don't think the intention of introducing him was to fixate too much on Kirk as a deadbeat dad, though. And when you think about it, really, I can't imagine the 23rd century birth control is so inconvenient that accidental pregnancy happens with any frequency. Not that they had it in the early 80s, but we now have the morning-after-pill. So I think it's best to just sidestep the entire Carol and Kirk relationship because it's problematic outside of it being a convenient plot-device for Khan.
This episode tried to reconcile this by having it start out as a one-night-stand and then wedging in an implausible wedding proposal in order to make Kirk look like less of an irresponsible creep (well, both of them, as it takes two to tango). If Marcus were vulnerable I would have wanted them to go in a "survivor's guilt" direction or a "life is short--treat every day like it's your last" direction. I didn't sense enough motivation for her to go from grief to short-term romance.
I missed this in the original post. All of Marcus' personal possessions had just been blown to kingdom come and she came to the Enterprise wearing the only outfit she had left to her name and, one would assume, kept getting it washed overnight. At least that was supposed to be the explanation. If you recall, almost every "guest" to the Enterprise didn't change their clothes. The chick in The Deadly Years comes to mind. Elaan of Troyus is probably the notable exception.
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