Babylon 5

[DonIago]

Rangers could have become good, but it's hard to tell from the pilot.

While I understand what JMS was going for with the weapons system...sort of...I really hope that would have been further refined had it become a series.

 

[Tim Walker]

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HumanityisSuperior

Note that this subverted in B5. The Earth Alliance is described as a paper tiger.

 

[Harvey]

Isn't it hubris when writers elevate humans above their foes with clichés about we, as the underdog, overcoming the odds with some cleverness? I have to groan with any ending that goes something like this: "Of all the civilizations I have encountered across the cosmos, you humans are unique. You are at your very best when things are at their worst."*

Oh, please...

The "humans build communities" monologue Delenn gives in "The Coming of Shadows" certainly revels in such nonsense.

 

[Bry_Sinclair]

Crusade could have been good if given a little more time to grow, especially with the first episode of the actual long-term plot all set to be made when the show was cancelled.

I actually quite liked Rangers. The characters had potential and I liked the Liandra design/history, but the plot was a little iffy, with G'Kar feeling really crammed in without much real purpose.

 

[Reverend]

Rangers could have become good, but it's hard to tell from the pilot.

While I understand what JMS was going for with the weapons system...sort of...I really hope that would have been further refined had it become a series.

Yeah, that thing makes more sense if you remember the 360 tactical holo-projection rooms the Minbari use in their capital ship. I like to think had the show continued on, someone would have pointed out to her that she was using it wrong and really didn't need to go at it like a maniac at a punching bag.

 

[DarthPipes]

I finally started Babylon 5 and I'm a couple of episodes in. Enjoying it so far.

 

[Tim Walker]

One fifth season episode I enjoyed was "A View From the Gallery". It was a below decks episode told from the point of view of Bo and Mack, two maintainance men.

 

[Forbin]

Rangers could have become good, but it's hard to tell from the pilot.

While I understand what JMS was going for with the weapons system...sort of...I really hope that would have been further refined had it become a series.

My thought was always to get rid of the kung fu moves, and just have her stand there and point. Shoot that. zap. Now that. Zap. Still technologically superior, but less Wile E Coyote silly. It would be coolest if she effected an imperious expression and was filmed from below with a chin light.

 

[DonIago]

You mean like Troi in Nemesis, or were you going more for a Phantom of the Opera effect?

I remember enjoying Crusade at least as much as I enjoyed S1 of B5 (which...may not be saying all that much, but it could be worse...) but again, I feel JMS made a poor choice with the series...with the soundtrack composer in this case.

Honestly, JMS seems to have a knack for coming up with these cool, exotic ideas that sound intriguing on paper (just read the scriptbooks), but when they're executed...well, I cringe.

 

[Ryan Thomas Riddle]

The "humans build communities" monologue Delenn gives in "The Coming of Shadows" certainly revels in such nonsense.

I too tire of the "humans are the greatest" cliche of media SF. I'd love to see a show that had more of an Octavia Bulter perspective on humanity's place in the universe. Where we aren't special. Where we aren't imperilaist.

 

[JWPlatt]

Keep in mind also that if we are deconstructed, it's the same thing on the opposite end of the spectrum, and still just as cliché. Don't go making us the pits of the universe just because I complained about hubris. Balance is good.

 

[Tim Walker]

I once came across reference to an alternative time line. At the end of the war, some Dilgar escape in sleeper ships, with plans to return and rebuild their empire.

 

[Tim Walker]

If Delenn is right, that humans build communities out of disparate groups-then how would we react to the presence of aliens on our own worlds?

Check out redem's comments.

https://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/reboot-babylon-5.208674/

Also, consider the Earthling worlds as an escape valve.

http://babylon5.wikia.com/wiki/Brakiri

 

[Jan]

My thought was always to get rid of the kung fu moves, and just have her stand there and point. Shoot that. zap. Now that. Zap. Still technologically superior, but less Wile E Coyote silly. It would be coolest if she effected an imperious expression and was filmed from below with a chin light.

The script originally called for the weapons to be controlled by eye, and the gunnery pod to be reminiscent of an old-time gunnery chair in airplanes. I guess somebody decided it wasn't dramatic enough. But I did like that they used the god room set-up like they had done on Minbari ships.

 

[Reverend]

The script originally called for the weapons to be controlled by eye, and the gunnery pod to be reminiscent of an old-time gunnery chair in airplanes. I guess somebody decided it wasn't dramatic enough. But I did like that they used the god room set-up like they had done on Minbari ships.

I suspect the decision was made due to a lack of faith in the effects to sell the shot. Understandable to a certain extent. All they had was an actress dangling from a harness in front of a green screen (or blue screen? whatever) and unless the director is confident the CG can deliver the energy they're looking for, they're naturally going to worry that the tai chi thing might not work very well.
Plus it's possible the actress just had trouble visualising it and putting it in the context of shadow kick-boxing (no pun intended) made it easier.

 

[Shaka Zulu]

I too tire of the "humans are the greatest" cliche of media SF. I'd love to see a show that had more of an Octavia Butler perspective on humanity's place in the universe. Where we aren't special. Where we aren't imperialist.

If you don't like that kind of writing, you shouldn't be watching space opera, then; that's what its usually like, so I find. Tropes like that are a part of most space opera stories, usually because the writer(s) want human beings to win in the story, or don't want to piss off the reader.

 

[Ryan Thomas Riddle]

Y

If you don't like that kind of writing, you shouldn't be watching space opera, then; that's what its usually like, so I find. Tropes like that are a part of most space opera stories, usually because the writer(s) want human beings to win in the story, or don't want to piss off the reader.

You can still tell Space Opera stories where humans win without resorting to the tired cliche of "humans are the special race with a destiny." Having humans triumph is vastly different than an alien race declaring how much of a special snowflake we are. THE OLD MAN WAR book series is a perfect example. SAGA is another Space Opera that doesn't even mention once how special humans are.

And a writer shouldn't worry about pissing of the reader because he/she isn't going to please everyone. A writer's job is to write the best story they can. Some will like it, others will hate it. It's just the nature of fiction.

 

[Tim Walker]

Well, in one sense, Babylon 5 was an exception. For a space faring world, Earth was a third world country.

And as for building communities, it would be a "hat" that would be difficult, not least because of humanities' tendency towards xenophobia. Humanity would have to struggle to make this role work.

 

[Reverend]

Part of what played into the "building communities" thing was directly tied into Earth being relatively newcomers. Most of the other races have been bouncing off each other for centuries, there's too much history for them to really trust one another. For the most part, humans are a blank slate to most races so having them as intermediaries is easier. (Note: I said "easier", not "totally effortless".)

It's not as if humans sauntered in, waved a magic wand and declared galactic peace. It was a perfect storm of being in the best place at the worst time. Had B5 been a Minbari station, or a Centauri one, they *never* would have been able to pull all those races together when it mattered most. The would try to dictate to the other races instead of trying to foster co-operation, because that's the only way they know how. While the Minbari (in the absence of a strong and wise leader) would probably try to make a stand alone. If Dukhat were still alive, he might have been able to pull it off, but for obvious cause-effect reasons, that scenario could never come to pass.

That's mostly just on a political level of course, which doesn't come into play so much once Earth began to turn in on itself. Indeed, that whole plot thread rather renders moot any silly claim that the show uses the "humans are the perfect saviours of the universe" trope. They showed humanity for the hot mess that it is. What makes us great and what makes us a bunch barely evolved shite-bags who'd have been better off staying up in the trees.

B5 shows humans at their best and their worst, as it does with with most of the other races. For the Vorlons it was exemplified in the form of Kosh & Ulkesh, personifying the extreme ends of what their race was about. For the Minbari it was Delenn & (to a point) Neroon (also "no mercy!" Delenn again.) Finally of course for the Narn & Centauri it was G'Kar & Londo switching roles at various points, both embodying their races' & civilizations' best and worst traits.

 

[wulfio]

Babylon 5 was a daytime soap for sci-fi geeks. You have to just appreciate it for what it is. There's nothing compelling or innovative about it.