Babylon 5
- Thread starter Kail
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In real life, we're usually in the process of proving that statement wrong.
That kind of thing is more about the author trying to define what makes humans *human*. What truly defines us as a species and a civilization.
Of course since we're all humans it's impossible for anyone to look at it objectively, so it's just down to whether a given author wishes to by cynical or optimistic.
To be fair though, each civilization in B5 is "unique", the thing that supposedly distinguished humans from the others wasn't that we're *better* in any real sense, just that we have a tendency towards building communities out of disparate groups. It's not perfect or all encompassing (as the anti-alien/nightwatch/psi-corp/Clark regime plot threads demonstrated) but it's there nonetheless.
Of course since we're all humans it's impossible for anyone to look at it objectively, so it's just down to whether a given author wishes to by cynical or optimistic.
To be fair though, each civilization in B5 is "unique", the thing that supposedly distinguished humans from the others wasn't that we're *better* in any real sense, just that we have a tendency towards building communities out of disparate groups. It's not perfect or all encompassing (as the anti-alien/nightwatch/psi-corp/Clark regime plot threads demonstrated) but it's there nonetheless.
I was thinking about TV Tropes and the different roles, and figured the Human are Average theme was the most realistic listed.
However, in universe I think that aliens would say that Humans Are Insane is what sets us apart from other species. Really, if Londo doesn't get the humor of Rebo and Zooty, does he expect humans to do the Hokey Pokey?
However, in universe I think that aliens would say that Humans Are Insane is what sets us apart from other species. Really, if Londo doesn't get the humor of Rebo and Zooty, does he expect humans to do the Hokey Pokey?
He get's Rebo and Zooty in the end and nobody can understand the Hokey Pokey. It's a mystery for the ages.
I liked that the show made the humans basically the least technologically advanced race out there. After years of Trek with it's not so subtle colonial undertones, to have a sci-fi show where humanity is soooooo far out of their depth that most of the races they're dealing with were colonising other planets back when we were still burning each other at the stake for heresy and witchcraft.
It was also an interesting choice to simultaneously have humans as individuals be the glue keeping the other races together and humans as a government being the most militant xenophobic isolationists in the galaxy.
The scope of B5 and the big stories they told was interesting, some of the writing cannot be faulted. The acting can be a little iffy sometimes, as well as the sets and some of the CG. I do like how the characters all had inbuilt "outs" (ways to write them out if the actor wanted to move on), so it meant that the cast wasn't as static.
I do wonder what it would be like with a reboot.
I do wonder what it would be like with a reboot.
I've been wondering that for a while now. B5 done with a proper budget could be truly epic.
One of the things about Babylon 5 that's unusual is that when you know a historical fact, it's valid and remains so. So many times in Star Trek, especially, and other movies/shows they spit out a line in an episode to give what they are saying at the time some weight or frame of reference, but then it's totally unsubstantiated and often outright contradicted. When B5 says something, it's said. The Dilgar War was 2228 to 2232 with EA involvement starting in 2230.
And that past even is very significant to what you were saying, the Humans weren't exceptional, but they were the only ones that seemed to want to treat other sophonts as people (maybe not equals, but still people and depending on the Human involved), willing to intervene in matters that didn't directly involve themselves. When the Dilgar began their campaign the other major races didn't care what happened to their victims. The Minbari had a Federation where they had client races under their protection, outside of those were not important. The Centauri had previously conquered most of the independent races and had lost control to various uprisings as their empire declined. So when Earth entered the war on the side of the League of Nonaligned worlds, it was really remarkable and propelled Earth to a major player in galactic politics. Too bad more effort wasn't made at communication in the aftermath of the war, because of the events of 2245. But that tragedy lead directly to the creation of the Babylon Project to prevent anything like that happening again.
I have seen lists which rate the different species by tech level. Here are lists for space faring races, at the beginning of the series.
https://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/babylon-5-tech-level-younger-races.121760/page-2
These are the species of Younger Races who have the tech for FTL travel and communications. Note that the Earthlings and Narns are roughly comparable, and near the bottom.
There seems to be a technological thresh hold involving Star Trek like technology, with true artificial gravity, tractor beams, gravitic drives, inertial dampening..... The Centauri seem to be just above that thresh hold, and the Minibari have mastered it. (The Vree-the "grey" aliens with flying saucers, I believe, are also above this thresh hold)
Below this thresh hold you tend to see ships with nuclear powered rockets, and no true artficial gravity-the Earthlings use rotating sections in their larger ships; weaponry is less sophisticated.
The tech level of the Vorlons and Shadows is above even that of the Minbari.
Compare the tech levels to First World Countries (Vorlons and Shadows); Second World countries (Minibari, Centauri), and Third World countries (Earth).
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The way it's talked about, I suspect the real motivation behind the EA getting involved with the Dilgar War was fairly cynical. Earth needed to get out of The Centauri Republic's pocket, economically and politically and the key to that was making in-roads into the League Worlds.
There was probably an element of self preservation there too as the Dilgar has specifically gone after the smaller independent worlds, avoiding direct conflict with the major powers (even forming backdoor ties with all of the big four save the Vorlons, obviously.) It would only been a matter of time before the Earth Aliiance was targeted and better to get into a fight on your own terms when the enemy is already busy on several fronts than get into a siege mentality.
It also had the added bonus of establishing a reputation as a military power to be respected and make any minor power or raider group thing twice before engaging directly.
If the Earth was a third world country compared to other space faring races, about the only even playing field was diplomacy.
Yes, the Earthlings could sell low tech items, such as art work, but that doesn't make you a super power.
Yes, the Earthlings could sell low tech items, such as art work, but that doesn't make you a super power.
^You don't have to be producing what you're selling. Such in the nature of trade, particularly if you're the only intermediary between two parties who otherwise cannot (or will not) publicly do business. Being such a middleman can be very lucrative.
Add to that a rapid expansion and what I imagine was a ravenous pursuit for new sources of Q40 to build all those new gates and jump drives, it's a fair bet a lot of what Earth sold was raw materials, mining rights and beacon tolls through their new trading corridors.
One should also remember that the whole idea behind the Babylon Project was that Earth could serve as an intermediary and host diplomatic and trade negotiations in neutral space. Remember that the League worlds weren't static, their membership was in almost constant flux and even then it was a very loose affiliation, forged more out of a fear of being picked off one-by-one than any sort of unified economy. Most didn't have embassies or even formal relations with other worlds in the League. To my knowledge there's never been any kind of centralised headquarters (the equivalent of the UN complex in NY, or the EU apparatus in Brussels.) Most likely because no single race was trusted enough by the others to host it.
Add to that a rapid expansion and what I imagine was a ravenous pursuit for new sources of Q40 to build all those new gates and jump drives, it's a fair bet a lot of what Earth sold was raw materials, mining rights and beacon tolls through their new trading corridors.
One should also remember that the whole idea behind the Babylon Project was that Earth could serve as an intermediary and host diplomatic and trade negotiations in neutral space. Remember that the League worlds weren't static, their membership was in almost constant flux and even then it was a very loose affiliation, forged more out of a fear of being picked off one-by-one than any sort of unified economy. Most didn't have embassies or even formal relations with other worlds in the League. To my knowledge there's never been any kind of centralised headquarters (the equivalent of the UN complex in NY, or the EU apparatus in Brussels.) Most likely because no single race was trusted enough by the others to host it.
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Good points regarding trade, Reverend.
Apparently, Babylon 5 served as the headquarters of the League, as well as a sort of United Nations.
Apparently, Babylon 5 served as the headquarters of the League, as well as a sort of United Nations.
Is everybody aware that there may be a B5 movie, a reboot, in the works? If all is going according to plan, JMS should have written the script last year. He'd said that he'd try to go into production this year but that was before he was announced as show-runner for the Red Mars series so I guess we'll have to wait and see. It's a feature film because that's the only rights JMS controls.I've been wondering that for a while now. B5 done with a proper budget could be truly epic.
I think it was more of a de-facto HQ since, as I mentioned, there had never been a place like it before. Even then, it wasn't exactly an even set-up. The way the B5 Council worked was that in motions brought before the council; Earth, Minbar, Centauri Prime, Narn an Vorlon each got one vote, while the League got a grand total of one vote *between all of them*.
Anyway, prior to that point negotiations were probably mostly done one-to-one, with perhaps the odd summit with the handful of worlds who could be persuaded to turn up.
So for example if the Drazi wanted to trade with the Grome, they'd have to send a diplomatic envoy to their homeworld or primary colony and deal directly. If by chance that deal impinged on a previous agreement with a Gree, then or or bother would then have to send *another* envoy to them. Back and forth. So on and so fourth. One imagine most trade deals would either last years, caught in perpetual bureaucratic deadlock or probably just as often, collapse due to the constantly shifting allegiances.
Having most of the major and minor races all on one station offers unprecedented access. Now trade deals can be hammered out in weeks or months instead of years and decades. Also, such worlds can now suddenly be held accountable to a council of their peers.
With that level of interconnectivity, news travels a lot faster and with the council able to be convened at short notice, a misbehaving member can be held to account much more promptly and by a (mostly) unified front.
Discussion of tech scavenging.
http://babylon5techmanual.yuku.com/...er-vs-an-Omega-amp-her-Fighter?page=2.Vpa-ilk
The humans' native tech base? One episode featured an old sleeper ship from Earth, similar to the sleeper ship in "Space Seed" (TOS). So humans had at least an interplanetary capability during first contact with the Centauri.
http://babylon5techmanual.yuku.com/...er-vs-an-Omega-amp-her-Fighter?page=2.Vpa-ilk
The humans' native tech base? One episode featured an old sleeper ship from Earth, similar to the sleeper ship in "Space Seed" (TOS). So humans had at least an interplanetary capability during first contact with the Centauri.
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Not much argument - though I saw a lot of potential in Rangers - loved the character interaction, especially. Should this happen, though, it'll be through JMS' studio and not dependent on WB (or TNT or the Sci-Fi channel....). I was lucky enough to see the opening sequence of the Lost Tales on a large screen and it made me want a B5 movie a LOT.
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