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Axanar anthology

As I saw someone on Twitter point out this week, if CBS was smart they would encourage the fan film community in the same way Lucasfilm does. It's not hurting them a bit. Having the fan base energized enough to create quality fan films means only good things for your brand, and CBS should be encouraging Axanar if anything.

Lucasfilm restricts fan films a number of ways.

(1) Running time is limited to 5 minutes

(2) No Union members allowed

(3) Restrictions on sexual content, violence, and profanity

Prelude to Axanar fails all three of these criteria (you can thank "queen bitch whore" for making it a clean sweep). Presumably, Axanar will also fail all three criteria.
 
The problem is that copyright law is not in tune with how the creative process actually works.

There isn't a single work of art that doesn't owe its existence to a series of inspirations. Nothing emerges tabula rasa. No matter how you try, you run over the same ground, consciously or unconsciously.

The law tries to carve out dividing lines that are truly artificial.

And there's all sorts of "gotcha" websites that are intended to tear down creative works on the basis of their similarities to other creative works.

A great treatise on this is Everything's a Remix.

Just look at Star Trek: Beyond, for instance. By the director of Fast and the Furious. Are people comparing the quick-cutting fast-action style already to Fast and the Furious? Of course they are, because the director comes out of that domain and you can't expect him to suddenly do a 180' and film Trek with lots of stagey Master and Commander style acting.

Does that mean Universal is going to wind up suing Paramount? No. No more than the producers of Antz wound up suing Pixar for Bug's Life or vice versa. And Bugs Life was just a retread of the Magnificent Seven which was a retread of the Seven Samurai, which was also the inspiration for Battle Beyond the Stars which was mostly a ripoff of Star Wars which was....

Well, you see how this becomes this endless quest for total 100% originality which never yields anything.
 
How on earth can anyone make any comment about the cutting style of Star Trek Beyond?

All that has been released is a teaser trailer.
 
How on earth can anyone make any comment about the cutting style of Star Trek Beyond?

All that has been released is a teaser trailer.

Without wanting to derail this topic, but.... I have always been amazed by the capacity of some fans to judge a new show or movie in their fandom by a short trailer. Some have already literally judged the entire movie by it.
 
As I saw someone on Twitter point out this week, if CBS was smart they would encourage the fan film community in the same way Lucasfilm does. It's not hurting them a bit. Having the fan base energized enough to create quality fan films means only good things for your brand, and CBS should be encouraging Axanar if anything.

That's one possible way of doing it. Again, if it belongs to them, then it's their decision who gets to do stuff in it. I get to write Trek fiction because I'm licensed to do so (well, Pocket is licensed and they hire me). But if they don't want to give that permission, and instead want to crack down, that's their decision too. Because it's their stuff.

It's the "borrowing toys" analogy we writers like to use. If you go over to a friend's house and they let you play with their toys, you know that you don't have the same liberties that you have with your own toys. When I was a kid, my friend across the street had much better toys than I did -- space LEGO sets, Star Wars action figures and playsets, a die-cast '60s Batmobile with a little plastic flame that came in and out of the rocket exhaust when the wheels turned -- and I loved going over the play with them, but I knew I couldn't take them home with me or break them or take them apart at my whim, because they weren't mine. And once his family moved away, I had no more access to those toys. So I just had to play with my own toys.



I mean, how do you feel about Wicked? Should Maguire have come up with his own setting instead of taking Baum's?

(Yes, Baum's work is public domain, but I'm talking about in principle.)

As you say, it's public domain. The toys aren't someone else's property, so everyone gets to play with them.



There isn't a single work of art that doesn't owe its existence to a series of inspirations. Nothing emerges tabula rasa. No matter how you try, you run over the same ground, consciously or unconsciously.

Of course not, but I see a clear difference between setting your story in someone else's universe and setting it in your own. I started out as a preteen building a future history that I initially imagined as being the Star Trek universe a century after TOS (an idea about seven years ahead of its time), but after a few months, I realized the Trek tie-in was too restrictive to my imagination and that what I was imagining had little to do with Trek anyway, so I just cut out what little Trek connection there was and made it my own universe. And over time, it came to have less and less resemblance to Trek (for instance, I realized humanoid aliens were implausible and started designing more exotic ones). And through numerous reinventions and overhauls, it eventually evolved into the universe that the majority of my original work has been set in, a universe that has practically nothing in common with Star Trek aside from a generally optimistic attitude.


Well, you see how this becomes this endless quest for total 100% originality which never yields anything.
That's not what it should be about. Anyone who thinks in those terms is not applying the common sense I'm suggesting. My universe is inspired by Star Trek in a number of ways, but it's clearly not set in the same reality as Star Trek. Galaxy Quest is a pastiche of ST and numerous other SFTV shows from the '60s, '70s, and '80s, but it's clearly set in its own distinct universe. It's very easy to tell the difference between something that presents itself as Star Trek and something that's just influenced by it.

Axanar is explicitly presenting itself as part of the Star Trek universe. It uses what are overtly Starfleet ship designs. It's named for a planet that was canonically mentioned in ST, and it's explicitly about a war with the Klingons. Yes, obviously every creative work is derived from other creative works in some ways, but there's a difference between being inspired by something and making a direct copy of it. If they want to be independent of CBS's control, they could just change their ship designs and planet names and tweak a few other details and make it something set in an original universe. It'd still probably be very imitative, but it wouldn't be trying to use someone else's trademarked and copyrighted material without permission. And it would free their imaginations to develop the universe in new directions that would let it become more of a distinct creation in its own right. Which is enormously more satisfying to a creator than just borrowing someone else's toys.

Heck, the FASA war-games stuff they're basing this on is pretty far removed from what ST was ever about anyway, so maybe they could change the names and designs and historical details and the resultant work would be very different from a Trek story.



How on earth can anyone make any comment about the cutting style of Star Trek Beyond?

All that has been released is a teaser trailer.

Without wanting to derail this topic, but.... I have always been amazed by the capacity of some fans to judge a new show or movie in their fandom by a short trailer. Some have already literally judged the entire movie by it.

It seems too many people don't realize that trailers are just commercials. They're made by a marketing agency, not by the filmmakers themselves.
 
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As I saw someone on Twitter point out this week, if CBS was smart they would encourage the fan film community in the same way Lucasfilm does. It's not hurting them a bit. Having the fan base energized enough to create quality fan films means only good things for your brand, and CBS should be encouraging Axanar if anything.
When does a fan film go from being a fan film to being a professional movie?
 
As I saw someone on Twitter point out this week, if CBS was smart they would encourage the fan film community in the same way Lucasfilm does. It's not hurting them a bit. Having the fan base energized enough to create quality fan films means only good things for your brand, and CBS should be encouraging Axanar if anything.
When does a fan film go from being a fan film to being a professional movie?

Maybe when you profit from coffee, t-shirts, prints, patches, model kits, soundtracks, you plan to host a convention, you have a series of books coming out, a lavish coffee table book... and you have to spend time creating a better customer handling system to deal with 'the revenue stream'.

:guffaw:
 
As I saw someone on Twitter point out this week, if CBS was smart they would encourage the fan film community in the same way Lucasfilm does. It's not hurting them a bit. Having the fan base energized enough to create quality fan films means only good things for your brand, and CBS should be encouraging Axanar if anything.
When does a fan film go from being a fan film to being a professional movie?

Maybe when you profit from coffee, t-shirts, prints, patches, model kits, soundtracks, you plan to host a convention, you have a series of books coming out, a lavish coffee table book... and you have to spend time creating a better customer handling system to deal with 'the revenue stream'.

:guffaw:
It would have been much safer just to make patches of the cat instead :p
 
That's one possible way of doing it. Again, if it belongs to them, then it's their decision who gets to do stuff in it. I get to write Trek fiction because I'm licensed to do so (well, Pocket is licensed and they hire me). But if they don't want to give that permission, and instead want to crack down, that's their decision too. Because it's their stuff.

It's the "borrowing toys" analogy we writers like to use. If you go over to a friend's house and they let you play with their toys, you know that you don't have the same liberties that you have with your own toys. When I was a kid, my friend across the street had much better toys than I did -- space LEGO sets, Star Wars action figures and playsets, a die-cast '60s Batmobile with a little plastic flame that came in and out of the rocket exhaust when the wheels turned -- and I loved going over the play with them, but I knew I couldn't take them home with me or break them or take them apart at my whim, because they weren't mine. And once his family moved away, I had no more access to those toys. So I just had to play with my own toys.

I don't really understand how that analogy fits the situation at all. Toys are physical objects, and if you borrow them then they don't have them. How is that analogous at all to the situation of creating a work in someone else's universe? That analogy would only work if in creating a work you took away their ability to create a work in their universe. What are you claiming is deprived from the rightsholder when someone creates a fanwork in their universe?

Axanar I'll admit is getting to the level whereby it might have some financial impact on CBS. But when we're talking about fanwork of any sort, are you saying that something is actually lost by the rightsholder when someone writes a fanfiction or makes some fanart? I mean, in the analogy, your friend should be able to say you have to give the toys back because otherwise they wouldn't have the toys anymore, which is reasonable; they should get to enjoy the toys, they're theirs. What I'm not understanding is, when extending the analogy: CBS has the right to say you have to "give your fanwork back" (i.e., take it down) because otherwise ______?
 
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You mention the fact that Oz is public domain in passing, but that makes all the difference. The situations simply aren't comparable.

"Passing" is all the public domain is worth, nowadays. Based on the Copyright Acts of 1976 and 1998 in the U.S., and the IP provisions of the Trans-Pacific Partnership bringing international law in line with American copyright law, I doubt anything of consequence will ever enter into the public domain again. As influential corporations see their copyrights on money-making, evergreen properties running out, they'll push for another extension, and another. I have no doubt that, barring another force pushing for IP reform incidentally addressing copyright, I'll live long enough to see the copyright time for works-for-hire by corporate entities retroactively and explicitly made infinite.

The Duke University Center for the Public Domain releases a report on the first of every year noting which works would have entered the public domain under the pre-1978 law, which was a still-somewhat-excessive 28 years, which could be renewed for another 28. It's interesting reading, but my point is this; appealing to the concept of public domain as the ethical line between infringement and inspiration is naive. For nearly 40 years, the writing has been on the wall that the public domain has been rendered stagnant, and that there will never be a day when you can make a Star Trek sequel or remake with the same ease you could make a work based on The Wizard of Oz or King Arthur or whatever.

The law is the law, but speaking as reasonable people about how the world ought to be, does it make sense to anyone that in a thousand years, the corporate heirs of CBS, Warner Brothers, Sony, and the rest will still be the only people who can tell stories about mythological cultural figures like Captain Kirk, James Bond, Superman, and all the other culturally important tales that had the bad luck to originate after the start of the 20th century? Especially considering the entire point of copyright is just to give a window of opportunity possible for a creative professional to sell their work at all before it's republished. If you can't justify the time you made working on something based on your pay out before you've been dead for 70 years, you probably shouldn't have bothered trying to sell it.

And don't even get me started on work-for-hire meaning that, for a lot of creative professionals, their work may as well not have been under copyright at all; they were paid for the time it took to make it, but don't have any direct way to benefit from their work afterward, never mind three generations of their descendants cashing out from it. It's hard for me to get worked up over the rights of artists to their work when I don't "own" a single thing I ever made professionally the way CBS owns Star Trek (which, as I recall, they did not author. I'd be surprised if most of the people involved in protecting CBS's copyright over Star Trek were even alive when it was first made).
 
I don't really understand how that analogy fits the situation at all. Toys are physical objects, and if you borrow them then they don't have them. How is that analogous at all to the situation of creating a work in someone else's universe?

It's about ownership. It's about who the thing belongs to. Understanding that you don't get to take other people's stuff if they don't want you to is pretty basic to being a participant in civilization.


That analogy would only work if in creating a work you took away their ability to create a work in their universe. What are you claiming is deprived from the rightsholder when someone creates a fanwork in their universe?
Profit, of course. If you're competing with the creator for the money of the audience, which is a finite resource, then you're depriving them of potential income. If you're just doing amateur fanfic and publishing it for free, then it's not competition in the same way.


But when we're talking about fanwork of any sort, are you saying that something is actually lost by the rightsholder when someone writes a fanfiction or makes some fanart?
I'm just talking about a common-sense respect for people's right to control their own creations. Tie-in fiction exists because the owners license it; fan fiction can exist as long as the owners choose to indulge it. The ideas and the world are theirs. None of it would exist without them. So it just seems fair to respect their authority over it. If they don't want you to do something with it, then it just seems polite to respect their wishes and do something different.


What I'm not understanding is, when extending the analogy: CBS has the right to say you have to "give your fanwork back" (i.e., take it down) because otherwise ______?
They have the right because it's not yours, it's theirs. You're taking things they created and copying them. Fan film makers are not creating works based on their own creations. They're using characters created by Gene Roddenberry and Samuel Peeples and Gene L. Coon and others, and designs created by Matt Jefferies and Wah Chang and Bill Theiss and others, and they're using those ideas that aren't theirs as the basis for their stories. Sure, the plots are new (except for those based on unfilmed TOS, TNG, or Phase II scripts), but the world and the characters and the set and costume and ship designs are not.

As I've been saying, there's an extremely simple way to solve this: If you want to create a work that is yours, that is genuinely new and under your control, then create your own original universe! Nobody's stopping you! Sure, it won't have the built-in audience that Trek does, but that just means it has to be good enough to attract attention on its own merits. And I know from experience that it's far more satisfying and liberating creatively, even if you have to settle for a smaller audience.

I think maybe a lot of fanfiction creators don't realize there's another option. As someone who works in both tie-in and original fiction, I see them as different realms. Tie-ins are done in deference to someone else and within the limits they permit; original work is all mine and I'm free to do what I want with it. So trying to push the boundaries of fanfiction to get more freedom to treat it as a professional endeavour seems to me like missing the point. If professional freedom is what you want, then fanfiction is the wrong place to look for it. Original fiction is a much better choice in that case.
 
"Passing" is all the public domain is worth, nowadays. Based on the Copyright Acts of 1976 and 1998 in the U.S., and the IP provisions of the Trans-Pacific Partnership bringing international law in line with American copyright law, I doubt anything of consequence will ever enter into the public domain again. As influential corporations see their copyrights on money-making, evergreen properties running out, they'll push for another extension, and another. I have no doubt that, barring another force pushing for IP reform incidentally addressing copyright, I'll live long enough to see the copyright time for works-for-hire by corporate entities retroactively and explicitly made infinite.

No, we won't see copyright terms explicitly made infinite. The Constitution says "for limited times." They will effectively be infinite, however, as Congress can return to copyright and extend the term for another twenty years or so, every twenty years or so, thus writing an expiration date into law, then revising the law so that the expiration date moves further and further into the future; the Supreme Court can't assume that Congress will extend copyright terms in the future, they can only go by what the law says at the time they look at copyright law, as in the Lessig case.

The Republican Study Group a few years ago had some interesting ideas about rewriting copyright law that would have effectively reduced the copyright term on economic grounds. After releasing their report, they had to retract it.
 
I can appreciate your view, Christopher, but I feel like this is coming down to a fundamental philsophical difference on the perception of intellectual property that's getting pretty far away from the thread topic of Star Trek: Axanar. I'd be happy to continue this conversation offthread if you'd like, maybe in PMs or email or something (though of course if you're tired of it yourself, that's not something I'm considering obligatory or anything), but I'm feeling like I'm likely already making this thread a bear to read for people and I'd rather not escalate it even further and make it even more annoying for them. :p

So I'll concede things, bow out and step back now.

(Plus, I don't want to get trampledamage coming down on me; she scares me. :p )
 
...appealing to the concept of public domain as the ethical line between infringement and inspiration is naive.
It's not an ethical line, it's a legal one--copyright law is currently designed to have a term where works are protected and a point at which they're not. You can argue that that term is now too long, but that's a policy argument.

People get too worked up (IMO) because they're seeing the legal argument of others and perceiving it as an ethical argument.

The law is the law, but speaking as reasonable people about how the world ought to be, does it make sense to anyone that in a thousand years, the corporate heirs of CBS, Warner Brothers, Sony, and the rest will still be the only people who can tell stories about mythological cultural figures like Captain Kirk, James Bond, Superman, and all the other culturally important tales that had the bad luck to originate after the start of the 20th century?
FWIW, we've all been talking about US copyright law, which doesn't (yet) reflect the situation everywhere. James Bond is now public domain in Canada, and Licence Expired (a cleverly-titled anthology of James Bond short stories) was recently published here as a result.
 
...appealing to the concept of public domain as the ethical line between infringement and inspiration is naive.
It's not an ethical line, it's a legal one--copyright law is currently designed to have a term where works are protected and a point at which they're not. You can argue that that term is now too long, but that's a policy argument.

People get too worked up (IMO) because they're seeing the legal argument of others and perceiving it as an ethical argument.

Yes, but the conversational thread I was picking up from Christopher, Idran, and Bibliomike seemed to me to be discussing the creative and moral merits of remakes/sequels versus "original" works, and the public domain was mentioned as making a difference on that level.

I'm actually really wary of some of the fans of Axanar trying to tie it in to the endless copyright fight, because I think it'd be more damaging to the IP reform cause than it would be helpful to the making Axanar cause. But in this case, the conversation naturally drifted over to the public domain, so I felt like my sermonizing would add something to the discussion without just sounding like sour grapes, as if that I didn't care how long copyrights lasted until CBS decided to enforce theirs.
 
They are really starting to kick the arse out of this one - I'm amazed the Lawyers keep on looking the other way.

Why, it's almost like they thought through the project and crafted its elements so as not to piss off CBS. That would sort of explain why the imagined scenario of "the lawyers swooping in" never seems to materialize, wouldn't it? ;)

Meanwhile...

For you, Joe. Fair is fair:

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:techman:
 
The only winners here will be the lawyers.

I remember when I was a teenager, I made a strategic Star Trek game, made the rules
etc., had it play tested during a Star Trek convention (1976) I was convinced that I had a winner of a game. When I approached a local publisher to start a small production run to sell at conventions, I was told, "Can't do that kid, Paramount would have my ASS if anyone did that without legal permission!" As there was no internet and I had no idea how to proceed (or even look up Copyright laws) I gave up..and my friends and I played the game until I graduated HS..

The law is the law folks, and you can try to have it changed, but in this Congress, that dog won't hunt.

XhFwR99tLp23.jpg


Axanar ended up acting as if THEY owned the copyright..to the point that it became a money making enterprise (sorry) The copyright holders waited far beyond what would be considered reasonable. Paramount/CBS own this shit, not you or I and no matter how much wailing the fans do, it won't make a lick of difference
 
^But did your game really need to be Star Trek? Was there any reason you couldn't have changed the Trek elements to something else? I've seen a "generic" version of the early Star Trek computer game, that one where you moved around a rectangular galaxy made of dots and typed in coordinates to shoot at Klingons, where the names were changed but the gameplay was the same.

Like I've been saying, fanfic isn't the only option. If you can't legally use someone else's ideas, you can just use your own.
 
^But did your game really need to be Star Trek? Was there any reason you couldn't have changed the Trek elements to something else? I've seen a "generic" version of the early Star Trek computer game, that one where you moved around a rectangular galaxy made of dots and typed in coordinates to shoot at Klingons, where the names were changed but the gameplay was the same.

Like I've been saying, fanfic isn't the only option. If you can't legally use someone else's ideas, you can just use your own.
No it didn't, but I was a teenager and wanted a Star Trek game, (you know, kids) and it simply didn't dawn on me that I could do that (The Battlefleet Mars game by Avalon Hill was the closest in concept in regards to the strategic maps they used and it came out a full year and a half after).
 
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