Rey in The Force Awakens (Possible Spoilers)
- Thread starter Captain Nebula
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This is true. This is also not a basis for calling her a girl. Since, you know, she was taking responsibility for herself. Fending for herself. Living independently for herself.
Just because her character grows and evolves doesn't mean she started the movie as a girl.
There's no confusion, there's simply the (correct) objection to the subversive implication of the original statement. Put simply, "girl" carries a specific childlike connotation, particularly when used thusly: "Rey goes from being a girl to a woman." By comparing "girl" to "woman," that sentence is clearly using "girl" in a childlike context.
Also, using to Luke and Rey pejoratively being called "boy" and Rey "girl" in their respective movies hardly removes the rather "childlike" connotation of the original statement.
Again they is some confusion, Rey at the end of the of the movie even carries herself differntly. She's no longer waiting for her family to return for her. I would not be surprised if there's a romantic relationship betwen Finn and Rey in the next movie. THoughout much of the movie things are happening so fast but once she takes command of the duel with Kylo she is different, she ven walks and carries herself differently. Call if whatever want.
Nobody claimed that she doesn't grow as a character. What we're refuting is the claim that this development is somehow the development from "girl" to "independent adult".
She is that at the start.
Here's news: People can grow at any age and stage of development. Independent adults can grow and learn, too.
She is that at the start.
Here's news: People can grow at any age and stage of development. Independent adults can grow and learn, too.
I agree completely that her character grows and evolves and even matures. But adults can mature, grow and evolve. So what that is called absolutely matters.
So while Rey at the end of the movie is very different, and I would say a more well-rounded person, characterizing her as a "girl" who becomes a "woman" fundamentally diminishes the independence and maturity of the character at the start of the film.
She has a set of values probably imparted to her from a guardian maybe Max Von Sydow's character, but she's not mature. Even after Han offers her a job she still wants to return to Jakku even thogh there's nothing there for her.
There's beena comoing of age aspect to the previous six Star Wars movies and I can certainly see it in Rey in this one. Despite her independence and resourcefullness I do think she goes though a coming of age.
Independence and self-reliance and ability to fend for herself = immature?
(And, for the record, we now have the childlike connotation of the way "girl" is being used here made explicit).
Come now. She certainly becomes more mature as the film progresses. But saying "she's not mature" to start the film? Yeah, that's definitely (and at best) a gross mischaracterization.
I think her drive to stay on and later return to Jakku can actually be read as a sign of her maturity! She has taken on a responsibility that she takes seriously, living in a hostile environment and waiting for her parents, against all adversity and odds.
You seem to argue that she stayed on Jakku out of fear or a childlike need for her parent's return. But I would say she stayed because she felt she owed it to her parents or herself. Taking on that kind of responsibility, when it would have been far easier for her to leave Jakku years ago and live a better life somewhere else, is a clear sign of adulthood to me.
^ Good point. Staying in an otherwise unfulfilling situation, for the sake of one's family, can be a sign of maturity and adulthood - putting her own immediate happiness on hold in favor of meeting perceived familial obligations. Sure, her decision might be misguided (in the sense that, as Maz states, her family isn't coming back), but that doesn't make her choices and desires to reunite with her family immature.
It was a childlike optimism. No less a fantasy than the Tooth Fairy or Santa Claus. That is why she has a little breakdown when Maz confronts her about it. She has known for a long time that her "family" isn't coming back for her, but in the situation she was in she had little more than that to hope for. She was essentially a wage slave for Unkar Plutt with no future and no prospects, as evidenced by her taking less and less for more and more work.
I don't think that makes her a "girl" but it makes her incomplete as a fully developed and self-determinate adult. There are plenty of examples of precocious teen or tween characters who are making their way in the world independently(or near enough); that doesn't put them on the same footing as the adult characters in their stories however.
Rey is holding on to those illusory vestiges of "normalcy" she has lived with for a decade, until she accepts the saber and The Force. Out of fear for what it means for her fantasy of a family coming back to make everything all better. Given the limitations of the English language when it comes to gender and age pronouns, "girl" isn't an entirely inaccurate way of describing such a person's mentality. I know plenty of boys and girls in their 20s who are self-sufficient but have yet to come into their own as adults and fully-developed human beings.
One or two in their 30s, for that matter.
I don't think that makes her a "girl" but it makes her incomplete as a fully developed and self-determinate adult. There are plenty of examples of precocious teen or tween characters who are making their way in the world independently(or near enough); that doesn't put them on the same footing as the adult characters in their stories however.
Rey is holding on to those illusory vestiges of "normalcy" she has lived with for a decade, until she accepts the saber and The Force. Out of fear for what it means for her fantasy of a family coming back to make everything all better. Given the limitations of the English language when it comes to gender and age pronouns, "girl" isn't an entirely inaccurate way of describing such a person's mentality. I know plenty of boys and girls in their 20s who are self-sufficient but have yet to come into their own as adults and fully-developed human beings.
One or two in their 30s, for that matter.
You've just met the galactic criminal the idealised stories of whom adorned your childhood. He was smuggling the most dangerous beasts you have ever seen that nearly ate the new friend you have just made. He got you involved in a deadly fight with his dangerous criminal associates, who wanted to have you taken and sold out for a prize. You've not even yet talked to the man properly. You're being offered to join him in his endeavours.
What would a mature adult do?
1. Try to find another job. Any job. Really, any other job.
2. Follow fancy childhood fantasy and join him.
By the end of the movie she takes on another job so to speak, so no she doesn't return home to a job where she's getting paid less for doing the same amount of work. She's no longer waiting for her family to return she's finding her own way in the galaxy. She does more than take on a new job with Han she becomes the new pilot of the Falcon.
That was a giant red herring, she never X-wings in the movie!
I made the point that Rey was evidence of improvement originally - the existence of Rey & others is an objective truth & backs up what I said originally. The counter argument - if it can be called an argument - has revolved around opinions about art, which are not related to my point, they're just subjective desires that haven't been met.
Ok, so that's all well & good, but doesn't actually refute my point. People want more role-model type characters. People are making those characters, just not in high enough quantities to everyone's tastes. How many of these characters is "the right amount" has no basis in anything objective because this is a discussion about art, an entirely subjective topic. This is why I again assert that this isn't a refutation of my original point, that if creators want to make positive role-model characters for women, etc., they can & the objective proof of that point is the existence of Rey et al.
No, it means that one's opinion can be valid without also being usable as evidence in an argument. The evidence is the thing that informs the opinion, not the other way around. In this case, the opinion that there are not enough role models in entertainment is an opinion, and does not prove that sexist powers-that-be have a strangle hold on the media.
Of course there is. In this case, as I have mentioned before, statistics regarding M/F hiring rates for applicants with equal experience would be an objective way to measure sexism in the industry, because that kind of statistic is not influenced by personal desires.
You shouldn't have to fall back on trying to sound academic to win a debate. Clarity is the friend of an honest debate.
Abrams is such a rush happy fool, I'm amazed she didn't literally grow up before our eyes a la Boyhood.
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In the normal world -2, in the Star Wars fantasy world - 1.
This is something I've noticed in Abrams' Trek films a fair bit. I think it comes from having worked in television where you can have you characters change quite a lot since it's on the air for a longer time. He might be going for the same approach but trying to fit it into two hours. This seemed especially prevalent in the first Trek film, with Kirk. I can see the argument that it happens with Rey a little, but not to the extent of Kirk in Trek.
I heard a theory about Rey, which I thought was pretty interesting, I don't know if you guys have covered it in this thread already, but it's that she's the Reincarnation of Anakin Skywalker.
I thought that might be an interesting film narrative, and viable justification for Luke leaving her on the planet. For example if he knew this, and after Kylo's betrayal, he decided that rather than keep her in a life where she might be tempted by the dark side(and become Vader again), that she would grow up away from the force. It could also explain Luke's reaction to Rey.
I wouldn't be upset with that twist. And if they do want to mine the whole prophecy angle, that could fit in to it really well with life/death/rebirth. But even if they don't, she can still be Anakin reincarnated, and Luke's kid at the same time.
I thought that might be an interesting film narrative, and viable justification for Luke leaving her on the planet. For example if he knew this, and after Kylo's betrayal, he decided that rather than keep her in a life where she might be tempted by the dark side(and become Vader again), that she would grow up away from the force. It could also explain Luke's reaction to Rey.
I wouldn't be upset with that twist. And if they do want to mine the whole prophecy angle, that could fit in to it really well with life/death/rebirth. But even if they don't, she can still be Anakin reincarnated, and Luke's kid at the same time.
I doubt it.
They clearly planned this new trilogy as a fresh start.
To backtrack on it attach all of Anakin's baggage on this new character would run against that.
