TOS music

[Karzak]

I can't think of a TV series that ever credited the composer who created a theme or themes that were later quoted in the score to anoteyhr episode.

Star Trek: Deep Space Nine, "Explorers":

Star Trek: Voyager, "The Voyager Conspiracy":

 

[Indysolo]

That's different. I think they're wondering about crediting a composer for interpreting another composers theme.

Neil

 

[Karzak]

I guess it depends on what we're talking about when we say "interpreting the theme."

Just about every episode of Voyager and DS9 "quote" or adapt their respective themes, even when the episodes were scored by composers other than McCarthy and Goldsmith.

Or are we talking about something else?

 

[Indysolo]

In the case of Duning quoting Steiner's "Blackship Theme" was Steiner credited for that as well? I don't recall seeing this on the cue sheet, but you could rarely rely on them.

Neil

 

[Karzak]

I would trust you more than I would others. I think I am just misunderstanding the angle of the discussion.

 

[Not Herbert]

Going from memory here, but I think Steiner was the only other composer who used Courage's Captain's Theme. OTOTH, Steiner only used the Star Trek theme something like four times total (and that's counting "Thematic Bridge" twice - once in Mirror Mirror and once in Elaan of Troyius). Duning, as noted, used Steiner's "Blackship Theme" in Return to Tomorrow. Everyone else used the Star Trek Fanfare at least once per episode. Well, Jerry Fielding missed it in his partial episode, The Trouble with Tribbles but he did use it in Specter of the Gun. The only composers to use the main theme to Star Trek (as opposed to the fanfare) were Joseph Mullendore and Wilbur Hatch in season one.

I THINK that covers cross use of other composer's themes, yeah?

Oh, and Courage wrote for season two. Take that, Mr. Cushman!

Joe Mullendore uses Courage's main title theme motif in season 1 library cues and in Conscious of the King.

 

[Not Herbert]

Return to Tomorrow reuses motifs by Fred Steiner, I believe.

Perhaps a Steiner cue from another episode. I doubt if Duning had heard, or seen, any Steiner Trek scores.

I'll have to watch the episode next week and try to locate any Steiner cues.

Don't take my word for it -- read Jeff Bond's liner notes.

Post #33, I found the cue I was looking for but it's in the Omega Glory speech.

 

[Not Herbert]

Going from memory here, but I think Steiner was the only other composer who used Courage's Captain's Theme. OTOTH, Steiner only used the Star Trek theme something like four times total (and that's counting "Thematic Bridge" twice - once in Mirror Mirror and once in Elaan of Troyius). Duning, as noted, used Steiner's "Blackship Theme" in Return to Tomorrow. Everyone else used the Star Trek Fanfare at least once per episode. Well, Jerry Fielding missed it in his partial episode, The Trouble with Tribbles but he did use it in Specter of the Gun. The only composers to use the main theme to Star Trek (as opposed to the fanfare) were Joseph Mullendore and Wilbur Hatch in season one.

I THINK that covers cross use of other composer's themes, yeah?



Oh, and Courage wrote for season two. Take that, Mr. Cushman!

Oh right, Mullendore uses the main melody, as opposed to the fanfare.

All the composers who wrote Enterprise "fly by" cues were instructed, or at least requested" to use the fanfare. Steiner gets by with a, sort of, inverted fanfare. Freid paraphrases it in Friday's Child. Kaplan plays it outright. I can't remember if Feilding wrote any fly-by cues.

In case anyones interested, I've transcribed some TOS cues.

 

[ZapBrannigan]

All the composers who wrote Enterprise "fly by" cues were instructed, or at least requested" to use the fanfare. Steiner gets by with a, sort of, inverted fanfare. Freid paraphrases it in Friday's Child. Kaplan plays it outright. I can't remember if Fielding wrote any fly-by cues.

There are some real treats in Courage's S2 library music. Not just Enterprise music, but Kirk's inspirational speech from "Mirror Mirror," and his fight with the Andorian in "Journey to Babel" as well.

 

[Tallguy]

All the composers who wrote Enterprise "fly by" cues were instructed, or at least requested" to use the fanfare. Steiner gets by with a, sort of, inverted fanfare. Freid paraphrases it in Friday's Child. Kaplan plays it outright. I can't remember if Fielding wrote any fly-by cues.

There are some real treats in Courage's S2 library music. Not just Enterprise music, but Kirk's inspirational speech from "Mirror Mirror," and his fight with the Andorian in "Journey to Babel" as well.

It's funny to hear where people think that library cue comes from. (Obviously it doesn't "come from" anywhere.) To me it's Omega Glory. But you're absolutely right that it was used first in Mirror Mirror. "In every revolution there is one man with a vision!" Was it used anywhere else?

 

[Indysolo]

Perhaps a Steiner cue from another episode. I doubt if Duning had heard, or seen, any Steiner Trek scores.

I'll have to watch the episode next week and try to locate any Steiner cues.

Don't take my word for it -- read Jeff Bond's liner notes.

Post #33, I found the cue I was looking for but it's in the Omega Glory speech.

Yes, but you should be concerned with post 35 where I said, "Duning absolutely quotes Steiner in the "Return to Tomorrow" score. Listen to "Henoch" (S2, D4, T25) and you'll hear Steiner's Romulan/Mirror theme." That's what we were discussing at this point.

Neil

 

[ZapBrannigan]

It's funny to hear where people think that library cue comes from. (Obviously it doesn't "come from" anywhere.) To me it's Omega Glory. But you're absolutely right that it was used first in Mirror Mirror. "In every revolution there is one man with a vision!" Was it used anywhere else?

It's one of the greatest cues in Star Trek history. An observer would never know it wasn't composed for any particular scene. And like you said, it was used for two of Kirk's three greatest speeches.

 

[Harvey]

Going from memory here, but I think Steiner was the only other composer who used Courage's Captain's Theme. OTOTH, Steiner only used the Star Trek theme something like four times total (and that's counting "Thematic Bridge" twice - once in Mirror Mirror and once in Elaan of Troyius). Duning, as noted, used Steiner's "Blackship Theme" in Return to Tomorrow. Everyone else used the Star Trek Fanfare at least once per episode. Well, Jerry Fielding missed it in his partial episode, The Trouble with Tribbles but he did use it in Specter of the Gun. The only composers to use the main theme to Star Trek (as opposed to the fanfare) were Joseph Mullendore and Wilbur Hatch in season one.

I THINK that covers cross use of other composer's themes, yeah?

Oh, and Courage wrote for season two. Take that, Mr. Cushman!

Joe Mullendore uses Courage's main title theme motif in season 1 library cues and in Conscious of the King.

I thought all the material in "The Conscience of the King" based on the theme (not the fanfare) was the library material -- not the score recorded specifically for the episode?

 

[Karzak]

Don't take my word for it -- read Jeff Bond's liner notes.

Post #33, I found the cue I was looking for but it's in the Omega Glory speech.

Yes, but you should be concerned with post 35 where I said, "Duning absolutely quotes Steiner in the "Return to Tomorrow" score. Listen to "Henoch" (S2, D4, T25) and you'll hear Steiner's Romulan/Mirror theme." That's what we were discussing at this point.

Neil

NotHerbert, you're new here so you may not realize what you're doing or who you're interacting with. I'd listen to IndySolo. He's one of the best experts on TOS music we have here, if not the expert.

Edit to add: Likewise, Harvey is someone well-known to us here on this board for his precise and razor-sharp focus on research based on factual evidence regarding the history, production and broadcast of TOS. You couldn't ask for two better sources of information on the subject than these two.

 

[Not Herbert]

Return to Tomorrow reuses motifs by Fred Steiner, I believe.

Perhaps a Steiner cue from another episode. I doubt if Duning had heard, or seen, any Steiner Trek scores.

I'll have to watch the episode next week and try to locate any Steiner cues.

Duning absolutely quotes Steiner in the "Return to Tomorrow" score. Listen to "Henoch" (S2, D4, T25) and you'll hear Steiner's Romulan/Mirror theme.

Neil

Okay, when I get some time next week I'll check out that score again.

 

[Not Herbert]

Going from memory here, but I think Steiner was the only other composer who used Courage's Captain's Theme. OTOTH, Steiner only used the Star Trek theme something like four times total (and that's counting "Thematic Bridge" twice - once in Mirror Mirror and once in Elaan of Troyius). Duning, as noted, used Steiner's "Blackship Theme" in Return to Tomorrow. Everyone else used the Star Trek Fanfare at least once per episode. Well, Jerry Fielding missed it in his partial episode, The Trouble with Tribbles but he did use it in Specter of the Gun. The only composers to use the main theme to Star Trek (as opposed to the fanfare) were Joseph Mullendore and Wilbur Hatch in season one.

I THINK that covers cross use of other composer's themes, yeah?

Oh, and Courage wrote for season two. Take that, Mr. Cushman!

Joe Mullendore uses Courage's main title theme motif in season 1 library cues and in Conscious of the King.

I thought all the material in "The Conscience of the King" based on the theme (not the fanfare) was the library material -- not the score recorded specifically for the episode?

It may be, or Mullendore took a cue and re-worked for the library. I'll have to listen to that score again too.

 

[Not Herbert]

It's funny to hear where people think that library cue comes from. (Obviously it doesn't "come from" anywhere.) To me it's Omega Glory. But you're absolutely right that it was used first in Mirror Mirror. "In every revolution there is one man with a vision!" Was it used anywhere else?

It's one of the greatest cues in Star Trek history. An observer would never know it wasn't composed for any particular scene. And like you said, it was used for two of Kirk's three greatest speeches.

Right, it works so well that it seems to be composed to a scene. I suppose the music editor just lined it up to climax where the speeches climax and let the beginning play out under dialogue.

Sorry gang, I suppose I should combine my posts. I'll try to figure that out.

Question just out of curiosity, are any of you musicians?

 

[Tallguy]

Going from memory here, but I think Steiner was the only other composer who used Courage's Captain's Theme. OTOTH, Steiner only used the Star Trek theme something like four times total (and that's counting "Thematic Bridge" twice - once in Mirror Mirror and once in Elaan of Troyius). Duning, as noted, used Steiner's "Blackship Theme" in Return to Tomorrow. Everyone else used the Star Trek Fanfare at least once per episode. Well, Jerry Fielding missed it in his partial episode, The Trouble with Tribbles but he did use it in Specter of the Gun. The only composers to use the main theme to Star Trek (as opposed to the fanfare) were Joseph Mullendore and Wilbur Hatch in season one.

I THINK that covers cross use of other composer's themes, yeah?

Oh, and Courage wrote for season two. Take that, Mr. Cushman!

Joe Mullendore uses Courage's main title theme motif in season 1 library cues and in Conscious of the King.

I thought all the material in "The Conscience of the King" based on the theme (not the fanfare) was the library material -- not the score recorded specifically for the episode?

No, Mullendore wrote a bunch of music for the episode that included the title theme. Spaceship Titles, Bridge #1, Quasi-Sex, Kirk and Lenore, Play-Off #2, Spaceship Play-On (both), Toast and Corridor... Ok, I give up, there's a TON of it!

A very underrated score. I'm surprised that Mullendore was never asked back.

 

[Zaminhon]

Question just out of curiosity, are any of you musicians?

Professional? Nope. Piano/ keyboards - a little rusty. I can read music and "play by ear" a bit. (Do you have some openings in your STC Orchestra? If I was talented enough it would be awesome to join.)

 

[BeatleJWOL]

In case anyones interested, I've transcribed some TOS cues.

Yes, very.