They'll have to deal with the Walkers first--I'm curious to see how that plays out.
The Walking Dead Season 6 Discussion
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They'll have to deal with the Walkers first--I'm curious to see how that plays out.
The Wolves have been proven to speak pseudo-survivalist nonsense. They are of one mind--and that mind has nothing to do with anything normal people can use.
Very true--and it has been repeatedly demonstrated that certain kinds of humans are beyond negotiation, interrogation or basic discussion. They have learned that lesson from the Governor, Terminus, Joe's Claimers and Randall's gang.
There's a significant difference between being a "kill or be killed" personality like Shane or the Governor, and having the presence of mind to make distinctions between the good, salvageable and evil. That presence of mind separates some from the Wolves' philosophy (as revealed to Morgan), the Governor's "you kill or you die, or you die and you kill" or the Terminus cannibals' "you're the butcher, or you're the cattle."
..and now they do know the Wolves have numbers, set elaborate walker traps and have tracked the ASZ for some time. If that is not enough intel to work with, nothing else would be.
I think Rick still has a lot of baggage about taking a half-measure with Andrew. Even after he had issues with Randall/Shane. At this point, he's not very trusting, and I think it's understandable. He applies that distrust to everyone, and to some degree with good reason. But it seems to have impaired his ability to judge people's character. The show is going in cycles a bit here where we meet some bad guys, and then distrust some good guys. So after the wolves, there is likely to be some more good guys to distrust, and then more bad guys. Rinse, repeat.
How about the fact that the captured guy was rambling nonsense? That others were seen to be mutilating people while not killing the brain? That they've encountered the zombies left by this group before? That they have various pieces of intel to put together?
There are enough signs at this point to paint the group as psychotic, and Carol just doesn't have time to deal with psychotic. She's had to shoot a little girl for being crazy, so with that mindset she's not going to be fucking around with crazy people trying to kill her. It all perfectly fits with her character.
I can't believe that there is an argument against even trying to get information. Yes, you may decide the information obtained is unreliable or something you already knew, but to just go with "Oh, we know everything we possibly could about the enemy" is how wars are lost.
You boil the argument down to something so simple that it's not even really what anyone is saying.
My own argument isn't to not try and get information, it's that Carol was doing what's in her character, the guy they had bound up was crazy, and Morgan taking any captive during an intense combat situation where you don't know the number of enemies around you is tactically stupid. If the circumstances were different, it might be worthwhile, but given what we (and the characters should) know about these wolves, it probably really wouldn't be.
Further, I think it's uncertain if Morgan actually did kill that guy at the end. I thought he did, but there seems to be some reasonable doubt online.
To Carol, they're just wolves (actual wolves). You don't need to know any more than that. If there's a thousand of them, if there's only ten of them; doesn't matter. They're out there and will probably come again. That's all you need to know.
It's like treading water in the ocean. Knowing how many sharks are around you and how far away they are is meaningless. They're there; they're coming.
Get ready.
It's like treading water in the ocean. Knowing how many sharks are around you and how far away they are is meaningless. They're there; they're coming.
Get ready.
Maybe, but not necessarily this one.
It's a matter of propriety. The intelligence you think should be gathered is about dealing with a potential threat. Carol is more interested in the immediate threat, which is always a greater priority. The wolves are there. Kill the ones that got in and see if any more are on their way when you're done. This is a defensive war, which can be won through vigilance and perseverence. All the intelligence you need is to look over the wall and see if there are more on the way, and to stay at the wall whether the answer is yes or no.
But if they'd been more forward thinking and collected more information, they might not have given the wolves the opportunity to ram a semi into the fence.
Even in a defensive war you want to know what kind of offensive measures are incoming.
And staying behind walls can lead to starvation, just ask any number of ruined castles in europe.
Even in a defensive war you want to know what kind of offensive measures are incoming.
And staying behind walls can lead to starvation, just ask any number of ruined castles in europe.
What gave the wolves the opportunity to attack was that the ASZ's forces were already in the middle of "forward thinking" a bigger problem, the walker herd. With your major forces already deployed, your reserve's main goal is to secure home base, against threats known and unknown. Greater foreknowledge of the wolf threat wouldn't necessarily help because you would still have to divide your forces and leave the settlement at risk to deal offensively with one threat or the other. You can't strike both because you don't have the manpower, and you can't just hunker down because you just face a double invasion later.
So a wolf invasion was inevitable, and the one unintended consequence is that these particular bad guys have thrown away the element of surprise. They came, they killed, they got conquered, and now the reserves will know to be on alert for further attacks while the forward deployed forces continue their mission. Nowhere in this situation is sweating a prisoner for information more important than just assuming he has more friends and watching out until they show up, which thanks to Murphy's Law is the most likely scenario.
So a wolf invasion was inevitable, and the one unintended consequence is that these particular bad guys have thrown away the element of surprise. They came, they killed, they got conquered, and now the reserves will know to be on alert for further attacks while the forward deployed forces continue their mission. Nowhere in this situation is sweating a prisoner for information more important than just assuming he has more friends and watching out until they show up, which thanks to Murphy's Law is the most likely scenario.
This is why Rick was on at the residents about waking up to the realities of what's outside. He doesn't care who's coming, he only knows that someone will eventually be coming.
Look at the idiot in the tower. Was he auditioning to be a stormtrooper? You've got your worst shooter in the tower because Deanna and other residents think (or thought) that if trouble comes, the simple threat of retaliation would be enough to scare them off. That they would be able to negotiate or reason with any potential threat. Rick tried to explain to them that they were living in dreamland.
The Wolves proved his point.
Look at the idiot in the tower. Was he auditioning to be a stormtrooper? You've got your worst shooter in the tower because Deanna and other residents think (or thought) that if trouble comes, the simple threat of retaliation would be enough to scare them off. That they would be able to negotiate or reason with any potential threat. Rick tried to explain to them that they were living in dreamland.
The Wolves proved his point.
A valid argument, but think about the end outcome. They could NEVER let this guy go. The second he attacked, he sentenced himself to death. You don't question him and then throw him in jail for a few years. He was going to be executed, and the only question was whether it would be quick and easy, or if it would be long and drawn out and involve a big debate. (Thus wasting time that they should be spending hunting down the other wolves.)
^That's not even the same issue as whether it's smart to get information or not.
Based on what we've seen they most likely would have killed him when they were done with him, just based on what he took part in.
But nowhere in the situation does it also make sense to kill an already contained prisoner when you could hold him for questioning later.
Based on what we've seen they most likely would have killed him when they were done with him, just based on what he took part in.
But nowhere in the situation does it also make sense to kill an already contained prisoner when you could hold him for questioning later.
Agreed...
Well said--the heroes were outnumbered, and largely fighting without guns for most of the conflict. Ending the threat was the first and only priority, not wasting time (and being distracted from a wild situation still threatening them) by trying to capture the Wolves.
The Wolves had repeatedly proven themselves insane--or using the animal behavior as a drilled-in cover. Either way, there was nothing to be gained from trying to pull information from a madman.
In the many times it must be said, the heroes know a good deal about the Wolves: how they operate, two key strategies in the attack on Noah's hometown, and now ASZ, and the fact they also use walker traps. Someone among the group would need to be on vacation not to be able to start constructing a profile and defense plan from all they already know.
I think he killed him; why else would he apologize, then walk the streets bitter? It seems he was forced to break his own "life is precious" belief only days after arriving in Alexandria.
So this is one of the ways this season TWD is far better than Fear..some true debate, and characters where we can understand multiple (and conflicting) points of view. Good stuff. Thought Provoking
My view is that, as crazy as the Wolves are, and the limited info we do know, there is always more you can learn. With them being crazy (as opposed to a disciplined kind of evil), it could be easy for some truth to slip out. Perhaps direction, distance, numbers, philosophy (i.e. going out in packs) , whatever.
We also know from at least Woodbury, that good people could get wrapped up with every bad (or , say, Darryl with the claimers).
In that timeframe, it wasn't always obvious who's who. The guy with the axe, and the one chopping up limbs, sure. But you never know.
And as someone said...they don't have to be prisoner forever...just at least a few hours. Rather than waste time, attention & bullets on a secured prisoner, go after the Free Wolves that are an imminent danger, and THEN shoot the prisoner, if needed.
Carol was acting in character, but as before, it might not always have been the right call. (Wrong on the prison virus, right on Terminus). I think Morgan's words -- that she doesn't like doing this, is a legitimate concern. Enjoying it crosses the line.
I also vote that I think Morgan did wind up killing the Wolf, based on what he says. That really hurts him, and I hope that means he'll make a decision to move on (as opposed to getting killed, which happens to most moral compasses on the show)
My view is that, as crazy as the Wolves are, and the limited info we do know, there is always more you can learn. With them being crazy (as opposed to a disciplined kind of evil), it could be easy for some truth to slip out. Perhaps direction, distance, numbers, philosophy (i.e. going out in packs) , whatever.
We also know from at least Woodbury, that good people could get wrapped up with every bad (or , say, Darryl with the claimers).
In that timeframe, it wasn't always obvious who's who. The guy with the axe, and the one chopping up limbs, sure. But you never know.
And as someone said...they don't have to be prisoner forever...just at least a few hours. Rather than waste time, attention & bullets on a secured prisoner, go after the Free Wolves that are an imminent danger, and THEN shoot the prisoner, if needed.
Carol was acting in character, but as before, it might not always have been the right call. (Wrong on the prison virus, right on Terminus). I think Morgan's words -- that she doesn't like doing this, is a legitimate concern. Enjoying it crosses the line.
I also vote that I think Morgan did wind up killing the Wolf, based on what he says. That really hurts him, and I hope that means he'll make a decision to move on (as opposed to getting killed, which happens to most moral compasses on the show)
Carol doesn't know these are feral lunatics. Was it in character for her to kill the guy? Sure. Still a dumb move. Nothing would be lost by keeping him alive, he was securely bound and no longer a threat.
He'd have been a potential source of information, take it, kill him, make determination on how viable or useful it was. Kill him now and you gain nothing on how or why this happened and by whom. Killing him was a mistake. Carol isn't infallible, she is capable of them.
He'd have been a potential source of information, take it, kill him, make determination on how viable or useful it was. Kill him now and you gain nothing on how or why this happened and by whom. Killing him was a mistake. Carol isn't infallible, she is capable of them.
but her cookies, though.... so good, you can't tell anyone. Especially not mom.
Hold him where and guarded by whom??? It's not like there's a secure CIA rendition facility in the middle of town. It's a group of abandoned cottages occupied by the PTA. Just trying to hold him in one of the houses is inviting escape and mayhem, and you can't spare people to do nothing but sit and make sure a prisoner is healthy and fed and secure until the interrogators are done with him. Why do you think Rick killed Porchdick? The whole rationale was "there's no jail to send him to!" It's not like they've built one since then.
Everyone is a feral lunatic now. That's the point of her arc. Not just people living in the woods but the people living in Alexandria too. Be useful or we will cut you down. She tried to warn Pete that they'd eventually just slit his throat if he became a nuisance.
Capture five (coherent) Wolves and interrogate them? What will you learn? That there's more of them in the woods and they want what Alexandria have and will be coming back soon. Carol already knows that.
Again. What information?
All you've done by capturing him is give the softies a dilemma once you're done with him. He will need to be killed... in cold blood. Then there will be a debate about the morality of killing him, letting him go etc. Carol ain't got time for that.
Yeah, the fact is, keeping him alive only creates dilemmas. They have no prison, no prison guards, and no food/resources to spare on him. Plus they can't be sure he won't escape or somehow cause damage. At this stage, the MO is take no prisoners, and this wolf guy probably knows that. He probably has a good idea that he will be killed, so why would he volunteer any information about anything? And what good is this information?
Given the circumstances, Carol probably made the best choice. Morgan's help was needed elsewhere, and leaving wolfy unattended even though he was bound is not some sort of guarantee when you don't know who's around. They were engaged in reactionary fight-to-the-death tactics, not long-term war strategies. There's a time and a place for those.
Given the circumstances, Carol probably made the best choice. Morgan's help was needed elsewhere, and leaving wolfy unattended even though he was bound is not some sort of guarantee when you don't know who's around. They were engaged in reactionary fight-to-the-death tactics, not long-term war strategies. There's a time and a place for those.
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