Spock Was First Officer in the Second Pilot

[Timo]

You seem to be going out of your way to try and contradict what was clearly laid out on screen.

Just trying to demonstrate that basically nothing was ever "clearly laid out on screen". The makers of TOS had little interest in doing so, after all.

It apparently takes an expert to appreciate the supposed celebrity status of a starship captain - no civilian has done so in the 23rd century. And nobody seems to have heard of Jim Kirk but the heroes themselves.

Maybe it was and maybe it wasn't, but there is no proof in TOS

...Which is why I want to point out that looking beyond TOS is a pretty nifty idea. Not because it has proof, but because it shows that TOS, contrary to appearances, had substance onto which to build.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[T'Girl]

So while Kirk was highly skilled he was in what seemed to be an organization of people just as skilled people even more skilled than he was.

This is what I want/wanted to see. It's the reason I dislike the "crazy Admiral" and making our heroes look good by implying that the rest of Starfleet pales in comparison. In the movies, the captains of the Reliant and Grisson simply don't measure up.

He's moving them from point A to point B and making sure they don't kill each other not actually negotiating anything, that sounds like the sort of assignment you give to someone who is available.

"Since it is in our sector, the Enterprise has been assigned to transport ambassadors of Federation planets ..."

From the captain's log. Kirk was in the right place, it might have come into consideration that the Enterprise was fast enough, was big enough, and was capable of protecting the passagers.

 

[Warped9]

Matt Decker - driven over the edge by extraordinary circumstance.
Ron Tracey - driven over the edge by extraordinary circumstance.
Commodore Stocker - an officer totally lacking in vessel command experience.
Ron Merrick - an Academy washout totally out of his depth.

The rest of the Commodores and Admirals were depicted as competent individuals.

 

[Timo]

I'd argue ST2 also makes a good job of showing that competence isn't sufficient - Kirk survives through sheer luck despite arguably being less competent than Terrell there. (Of course, he's an Admiral!)

It's only ST3 where this "others must become idiots to make the hero look good" phenomenon gets hold of Star Trek. And it lets go almost immediately, too: ST4 shows a competent Starfleet facing impossible odds, ST5 shows an apologetic Admiral, and ST6 shows competent Admirals who just happen to be adversaries (also to each other, doing half of Kirk's hero'ing for him already).

Incompetence of superiors isn't really a trope even outside the TOS context. There are plenty of evil/ambitious/extra-patriotic individuals in TNG and DS9, but only one played for a complete sucker, namely Kennelly in "Ensign Ro". But that's well beyond the scope of this thread.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Ryan Thomas Riddle]

Ron Tracey - driven over the edge by extraordinary circumstance.

He wasn't driven over the edge. He let his entire crew die and slaughtered a tribe because of his greed. He was motivated by his own self-interest.

 

[BillJ]

Ron Tracey - driven over the edge by extraordinary circumstance.

He wasn't driven over the edge. He let his entire crew die and slaughtered a tribe because of his greed. He was motivated by his own self-interest.

I don't think he had any control over his crew dying.

 

[Timo]

That's just Kirk's perverted view of the events, in no way supported by the facts.

The tribe Tracey helped slaughter deserved everything it got - it had just genocidally conquered the entire planet, but for this one village. Kirk would have acted no different there. Or if he did, he'd be no hero.

Tracey let his entire crew die the same way Kirk let all the Malurians die. Surely Kirk should fry for letting that happen?

Greed? Self-interest? There was nothing for Tracey to gain there. Nothing indicated Tracey would have been in a position to benefit from what happened, or interested in pursuing such benefits. Self-survival might have been a motivation - but only after Kirk came. Before that, Tracey would have ensured his survival simply by abandoning the distressed Kohms and joining the monstrous Yangs.

It was only after Kirk came and threatened to ruin Tracey's career for his heinous crime of doing nothing wrong that the idea of eliminating the intruding colleague began to sound pretty good. "Driven over the edge" is pretty accurate there.

Really, this is one of the greatest failures of the concept of trying to make the hero look good by introducing an evil point of comparison. Tracey trumps Kirk every step of the episode, even winning the obligatory fisticuffs/knifefight at the end. And he's not the one who sides with the Nazis who mistake the star-spangled banner for a swastika.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[J.T.B.]

So while Kirk was highly skilled he was in what seemed to be an organization of people just as skilled people even more skilled than he was.

The question I was addressing wasn't whether he stood out among other starship captains, but whether he was an insignificant officer on an insignificant ship. Being selected to command a warship as a "post captain" was a rare and significant achievement 200 years ago, is so today, and appears to be so in TOS's day.

I always though the TOS Enterprise being the top dog was a plus, as it was kind of annoying when modern trek made everyone the uber badass of Starfleet flying the most important things in it.

I don't follow. TOS Enterprise was the top dog, or did you mean not the top dog?

 

[LadyT'Anna]

Greed? Self-interest? There was nothing for Tracey to gain there. Nothing indicated Tracey would have been in a position to benefit from what happened, or interested in pursuing such benefits.

I was under the impression that Tracey was on the trail of what he thought to be the elixir of youth. That would presumably bring in a pretty penny if discovered.

 

[Ryan Thomas Riddle]

Ron Tracey - driven over the edge by extraordinary circumstance.

He wasn't driven over the edge. He let his entire crew die and slaughtered a tribe because of his greed. He was motivated by his own self-interest.

I don't think he had any control over his crew dying.

I may be misremembering the order of events in the episode then — it's one I don't rewatch often. Did the crew die before or after he learned the planet offered immunity?

However, once he learned of the immunity, he saw an opportunity to profit from it and sided with the villagers rather than the savages.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Greed? Self-interest? There was nothing for Tracey to gain there. Nothing indicated Tracey would have been in a position to benefit from what happened, or interested in pursuing such benefits.

I was under the impression that Tracey was on the trail of what he thought to be the elixir of youth. That would presumably bring in a pretty penny if discovered.

Yeah, Tracey succumbed to temptation and went power-mad.

TRACEY: Their year of the red bird comes once every eleven years, which he's seen forty two times. Multiply it. Wu is four hundred and sixty two years old. His father is well over a thousand. Interested, Jim?
KIRK: McCoy could verify all that.
TRACEY: He will if you order it. We must have a doctor researching this. Are you grasping all it means? This immunising agent here, once we've found it, is a fountain of youth. Virtual immortality, or as much as any man will ever want.
KIRK: For sale by
TRACEY: (to Wu) Out. (Wu leaves) By those who own the serum. McCoy will eventually isolate it. Meanwhile, you inform your ship your situation's impossible. Order them away. When we're ready, we'll bargain for a whole fleet of ships to pick us up. And they'll do it.
KIRK: Yes, I suppose they would.
TRACEY: We've got to stay alive. Let the Yangs kill us and destroy what we have to offer and we'll have committed a crime against all humanity. I'd say that's slightly more important than the Prime Directive, wouldn't you, Jim?

http://www.chakoteya.net/StarTrek/54.htm

 

[Lieut. Arex]

"Leroy?" never knew that

 

[The Old Mixer]

In the movies, the captains of the Reliant and Grisson simply don't measure up.

I have to object to that characterization of Terrell. The "Why didn't they scan the planets?" / "Why didn't they look up that Khan was in that system?" thing is fans noticing plot holes, not intentionally written incompetence. Terrell didn't strike me as incompetent from what we saw of him in the story, and he got a heroic death when he resisted Khan's influence enough to put the phaser on himself rather than Kirk.

 

[T'Girl]

"Why didn't they scan the planets?" / "Why didn't they look up that Khan was in that system?"

Why didn't Terrell stun everyone on wide beam, and ask questions later.

Terrell was armed, and his first officer was obviously scared shitless.

Terrell was written as a fool.

 

[Duncan MacLeod]

"Why didn't they scan the planets?" / "Why didn't they look up that Khan was in that system?"

Why didn't Terrell stun everyone on wide beam, and ask questions later.

Terrell was armed, and his first officer was obviously scared shitless.

Terrell was written as a fool.

I'm sorry, but I've got to agree with T'Girl on this one. Terrell was written as a fool.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

So while Kirk was highly skilled he was in what seemed to be an organization of people just as skilled people even more skilled than he was.

The question I was addressing wasn't whether he stood out among other starship captains, but whether he was an insignificant officer on an insignificant ship. Being selected to command a warship as a "post captain" was a rare and significant achievement 200 years ago, is so today, and appears to be so in TOS's day.

I always though the TOS Enterprise being the top dog was a plus, as it was kind of annoying when modern trek made everyone the uber badass of Starfleet flying the most important things in it.

I don't follow. TOS Enterprise was the top dog, or did you mean not the top dog?

I meant not, forgot to put that there sorry.

 

[Timo]

However, once he learned of the immunity, he saw an opportunity to profit from it and sided with the villagers rather than the savages.

That particular "and" doesn't appear to carry any causality or correlation connotations... Siding with the villagers was the ultimate bad idea if the goal was survival, as the villagers were the doomed underdogs.

Tracey would have had nothing to lose by himself slaughtering every last remaining Kohm and bringing their scalps to the Yang leader in hopes of purchasing his own continuing life. He believed in an "immunizing agent", that is, an agent immunizing one to natural death - and he believed himself cured by that very agent. So he had no need for Kohms and no interest in their survival, as the agent as far as he knew was external to the Kohms and worked on humans.

The decision to side with the Kohms must have been on purely humanitarian grounds, then. And an act of self-sacrifice, considering that this was known to be the losing position.

This is what makes Tracey interesting as a character, and the episode interesting as drama, even if against the misguided wishes of the writers. Tracey is not the Evil Kirk - he's just Kirk, with a different face. And he has a much better concept of good and evil than the recently arrived heroes do, so it's a journey of discovery for our heroes, too - but the audience can travel farther.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[JimZipCode]

Here's what a 5-2-66 memo from Roddenberry says about Spock:

That suggest quite strongly that the Science Officer is ALWAYS the XO. Doesn't that seem a little ridiculous to you? Not well-thought-out? Only one path to command, and it runs thru Science Officer.

Did Kirk have to pull a stint as Science Officer on a ship, before getting his command?

 

[BillJ]

Here's what a 5-2-66 memo from Roddenberry says about Spock:

That suggest quite strongly that the Science Officer is ALWAYS the XO. Doesn't that seem a little ridiculous to you? Not well-thought-out? Only one path to command, and it runs thru Science Officer.

Did Kirk have to pull a stint as Science Officer on a ship, before getting his command?

I agree it is probably something best disregarded.

 

[Ronald Held]

How can a non Vulcan do two difficult jobs well, even assuming (nominally) a shift as Science Officer and another as Exec.