Gary Mitchell as First Officer

[Push The Button]

An analog from TNG would be Lt. Cmdr. Data, who was second officer and quite frequently served as helmsman.

Data's console isn't the helm. It's the operations (Ops) console.

In TOS' time, the portside console was indeed the helm, and starboard was navigation. But by the time TNG came around, it wasn't (at that point the helm and navigation consoles were combined into one station).

I stand corrected.

So Deanna gets to sit closer to the Captain than the second officer...man, that is messed up.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ That's probably so the counselor can talk to the captain without anyone on the other ship hearing it (and when muting all of the bridge audio would be suspicious).

When giving orders, the captain wants everyone to hear; but talking to the counselor is often private.

 

[ZapBrannigan]

When giving orders, the captain wants everyone to hear; but talking to the counselor is often private.

That was a flaw in TNG. Real captains don't need a therapist at their elbow to command a ship.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ You can blame Roddenberry for that. He was in full psychobabble-utopia mode when TNG was created.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

Spock acts at all times like Kirk's exec. He advises him in crucial matters and obviously has "the captain's ear." This Spock is pretty much the same Spock we see in The Corbomite Maneuver and Mudd's Women. No change other than in costume or makeup. He does the same job.

I have to agree. As much as I love WNMHGB and the Mitchell character, there's no confusion about the first officer position, and as many point out, Spock served the same position in relation to the captain as he would in the regular series.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

When giving orders, the captain wants everyone to hear; but talking to the counselor is often private.

That was a flaw in TNG. Real captains don't need a therapist at their elbow to command a ship.

...and the rest of the Berman period of ST. A ton of new age, morning talk show nonsense forced into the ST format. You would ended up with the same result with a ship run by Dr. Joyce Brothers, Dr. Phil, Oprah, and any other champion of the confused.

 

[F. King Daniel]

I always figured Spock wearing command yellow in WNMHGB was an abortive attempt to show that he was more than "just" science officer.

(of course, now I can't watch it without the "co-captain" silliness of Turkish Star Trek in my head)

 

[Commishsleer]

When giving orders, the captain wants everyone to hear; but talking to the counselor is often private.

That was a flaw in TNG. Real captains don't need a therapist at their elbow to command a ship.

Of course they did. How else could they tell the Romulans/Klingons/other alien species were being deceptive?

 

[J.T.B.]

I always figured Spock wearing command yellow in WNMHGB was an abortive attempt to show that he was more than "just" science officer.

Yeah, the fact that Spock and Kirk share the "gold" shirt and star badge seems to me like an indication of intent to link them as CO and XO.

Regarding the helm/nav console situation in TOS, I always figured that the two were really basically the same thing and could perform each other's functions, they just had two different "traditional" titles. The same way that aircraft have a pilot and co-pilot, but in the military one is called the "aircraft commander" and the other the "pilot," or "captain" and "first officer" on an airliner.

 

[C.E. Evans]

When giving orders, the captain wants everyone to hear; but talking to the counselor is often private.

That was a flaw in TNG. Real captains don't need a therapist at their elbow to command a ship.

^ You can blame Roddenberry for that. He was in full psychobabble-utopia mode when TNG was created.

To be fair, McCoy was essentially Kirk's counselor during TOS. He was often as much a psychologist as he was a surgeon, and even included overseeing the mental health of the crew as part of his duties.

Whereas that was simply one of McCoy's responsibilities as CMO, it was Troi's sole one as ship's counselor. IMO, the fundamental difference is whereas Picard asked for Troi's advice, McCoy freely gave his advice to Kirk whether he wanted it or not.

 

[TheSubCommander]

I always took it that in WNMHGB Mitchell was XO and Spock was Second Officer--who was then promoted to fill Mitchell's vacant post. That's how it always felt to me.

I got this feeling too.

 

[ZapBrannigan]

When giving orders, the captain wants everyone to hear; but talking to the counselor is often private.

That was a flaw in TNG. Real captains don't need a therapist at their elbow to command a ship.

Of course they did. How else could they tell the Romulans/Klingons/other alien species were being deceptive?

But Troi just happened to be a Betazoid, and Picard exploited her psychic ability against opponents. Being psychic wasn't a job requirement for the ship's counselor, who officially (and outrageously) was supposed to be on the bridge to monitor the captain's mood and soothe the dear man. Presumably, many "mere human" therapists were acting as Captain's Nanny during the TNG era.

But notice that on Voyager, when a woman was in charge, suddenly the captain was a strong, independent force with no need for emotional supervision. Apparently L.A. therapy culture was in conflict with feminism, and happily feminism won. [I like Voyager, btw. In my view that show gets a bad rap around here.]

 

[EnsignHarper]

That was a flaw in TNG. Real captains don't need a therapist at their elbow to command a ship.

Of course they did. How else could they tell the Romulans/Klingons/other alien species were being deceptive?

But Troi just happened to be a Betazoid, and Picard exploited her psychic ability against opponents. Being psychic wasn't a job requirement for the ship's counselor, who officially (and outrageously) was supposed to be on the bridge to monitor the captain's mood and soothe the dear man. Presumably, many "mere human" therapists were acting as Captain's Nanny during the TNG era.

But notice that on Voyager, when a woman was in charge, suddenly the captain was a strong, independent force with no need for emotional supervision. Apparently L.A. therapy culture was in conflict with feminism, and happily feminism won. [I like Voyager, btw. In my view that show gets a bad rap around here.]

I believe the original in universe explanation was that the Galaxy class ships were SUPPOSED be on longer deep space missions with a larger crew with a LOT of children aboard, do SOME kind of personal counseling would be necessary. As it turned out, TNG did very LITTLE real exploring...

Voyager, and the other hand, was a lean, mean ship with a smaller crew, that was probably the equivalent of a destroyer in a navy, and did a lot of dirty work - far more than Enterprise was supposed to...

 

[Shawnster]

I always took it that in WNMHGB Mitchell was XO and Spock was Second Officer--who was then promoted to fill Mitchell's vacant post. That's how it always felt to me.

I got this feeling too.

So did I. I always thought Mitchell was XO.

 

[C.E. Evans]

Not once did I think Mitchell was XO, but I did think that he was closer to Kirk as a friend than Spock was. It's even possible that Mitchell and Kelso were friends, which makes what happened on Delta Vega even more tragic if so.

 

[ZapBrannigan]

Not once did I think Mitchell was XO, but I did think that he was closer to Kirk as a friend than Spock was.

Likewise. It never occurred to me that Mitchell could be the First Officer until this thread came along.

 

[Sci Fi Fan]

I really liked the references to that episode in the Vanguard novel, Harbinger, where Kirk is still upset about having to kill Gary Mitchell.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

To be fair, McCoy was essentially Kirk's counselor during TOS. He was often as much a psychologist as he was a surgeon, and even included overseeing the mental health of the crew as part of his duties.

Whereas that was simply one of McCoy's responsibilities as CMO, it was Troi's sole one as ship's counselor. IMO, the fundamental difference is whereas Picard asked for Troi's advice, McCoy freely gave his advice to Kirk whether he wanted it or not.

The difference is, McCoy gave Kirk advice he NEEDED.

 

[Harvey]

Here's what a 5-2-66 memo from Roddenberry says about Spock:

Mister Spock is the ship’s Science Officer, in charge of all scientific departments and personnel aboard the U.S.S. Enterprise. As such, he is the ship’s Number Two ranking officer.

An even earlier document -- the first draft of the writer-director information guide, dated 3-15-66 -- is even clearer:

Mister Spock. This is the ship's Science Officer, the number two command position aboard the starship U.S.S. Enterprise.

And here's what the 7-8-65 draft of "Where No Man Has Gone Before" says when it introduces Spock:

Ship's Captain JAMES KIRK sits across the table from Science Officer MISTER SPOCK, a three-dimensional chess game between them.

The whole thing seems pretty cut and dry to me. Spock is the ship's science officer, the ship's science officer is second-in-command, therefore Spock is second-in-command.

 

[C.E. Evans]

To be fair, McCoy was essentially Kirk's counselor during TOS. He was often as much a psychologist as he was a surgeon, and even included overseeing the mental health of the crew as part of his duties.

Whereas that was simply one of McCoy's responsibilities as CMO, it was Troi's sole one as ship's counselor. IMO, the fundamental difference is whereas Picard asked for Troi's advice, McCoy freely gave his advice to Kirk whether he wanted it or not.

The difference is, McCoy gave Kirk advice he NEEDED.

The same could be said for Troi giving Picard advice HE needed, but hers tended to be mission-related (in particular with outsiders) rather than about personal matters with him.