What Happened to the French?

[LadyT'Anna]

Re: Bashir, I find it jarring that his parents sound almost Cockney even though he himself speaks with a public-school accent. I've always wondered about that discrepancy.

There is, or was, a conceit in American television whereby people who were presumed to be foreigners and/or aristocrats spoke with a standard RP British accent much like Bashir's. I'm guessing Trek producers replaced the RP accent with American English.

 

[USS Triumphant]

I don't see those "implications". I see Data saying that French is "an obscure language", which is undoubtedly true at all points of history, with only a tiny part of Earth's population plus perhaps Trelane dabbling in the language.

If you're talking about the total number of speakers, well, honestly I'm still not sure you're correct, given the number of former French colonies where the language was and is spoken. But a language doesn't have to be ubiquitous to be influential and thus not properly described as "obscure". Ever heard the phrase "lingua franca"? At one point, French was THE language for international communications and especially diplomacy.

Now by the 24th century? Well sure, probably - but I also don't subscribe to the notion that their "Standard" is exactly English, even if Khan mistook it for such. Between integration with other major languages, ala Firefly, language drift, like the fact that there is now a definition of "literally" in the OED that means "figuratively", and words for new concepts, it's amazing that Khan would even think he was hearing English in 250+ years. I mean, read this:

"She texted me an emoji I didn't recognize, said it meant she was on x and twerking hard. I didn't know what twerking was, so I googled it on my phablet."

That would have been almost utter nonsense even just 25 years ago, much less 250!

 

[Bad Thoughts]

Between integration with other major languages, ala Firefly, language drift, like the fact that there is now a definition of "literally" in the OED that means "figuratively", and words for new concepts, it's amazing that Khan would even think he was hearing English in 250+ years.

Consider that literally meant "present in words:" the meaning has merely drifted back to where it started.

 

[eyeresist]

Well, he spoke in a very standard and formal "BBC-ish" way, not necessarily in an everyday colloquial manner

If TPTB ever recreate TNG, perhaps Picard could be given a incredible thick cockney accent.

Sean Pertwee!!!!!!

(I think this is actually a serious idea that has been lurking in my subconscious for a while.)

It is a mixed bag, but in general, the uniquely British pronunciations tend to get weeded out. Yes, Bashir says Herbs rather than 'erbs, but he also says vac-CINE rather than VAC-cine.

That's how Brits say it too.

When I first saw TNG, I wondered why they were pronouncing Data in the English way (day-ta). I always though Americans pronounced it dar-ta.

Sadly you have it the wrong way around. The English pronunciation used to be "dah-ta" (from the Latin pronunciation) or occasionally "datta" (i.e. first syllable rhyming with "hat"), but this changed over the last 30 years, due to American influence including TNG.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

Just to bring this more directly back to the actual context of the quote:

'That is from an obscure language known as French.'

'Mr. Data, the French language for centuries on Earth represented Civilization.'

'Indeed.' Data then wants to further clarify his meaning but is interrupted by Riker.

The dictionary definition of Obscure is:
not important or well known.
"a relatively obscure actor"
synonyms: little known, unknown, unheard of, undistinguished, insignificant, unimportant, inconsequential, inconspicuous, unnoticed, nameless, anonymous, minor, humble, lowly, unrenowned, unsung, unrecognized, unhonoured, inglorious, forgotten
"an obscure Peruvian painter"

Data's statement is very simple and straightforward in a purely Starfleet/Federation context - there is no reason whatsoever to assume that it has any relevance whatsoever to the size or importance of French on Earth, it's just that Earth is one planet out of many, many others, so any language that is limited to just Earth is automatically not well known or important, ie, obscure, outside of Earth itself. Data even factually agrees that French isn't obscure within the context of Earth history, but that simply isn't relevant to his statement.

 

[hux]

Ive seen American TV shows where people say dah-ta but never heard that anywhere in Britain. If Britain changed to the American pronunciation, why are there still Americans saying it that way? Maybe it is an IT influenced differentiation.

Re: Bashir's parents accent. If everyone is using the UT, wouldn't all accents have died out by now? Aren't there episodes where people speak with accents even though they're speaking a different language (so is the UT giving them the accent?).

 

[Nerys Myk]

Ive seen American TV shows where people say dah-ta but never heard that anywhere in Britain. If Britain changed to the American pronunciation, why are there still Americans saying it that way? Maybe it is an IT influenced differentiation.

Re: Bashir's parents accent. If everyone is using the UT, wouldn't all accents have died out by now? Aren't there episodes where people speak with accents even though they're speaking a different language (so is the UT giving them the accent?).

Wouldn't there still be accents in what ever language the UT is translating? The audience isn't always hearing a UT translation, especially when the speaker is presented as an English speaker using English, which is apparently "Federation Standard".

 

[Elias Vaughn]

When I first saw TNG, I wondered why they were pronouncing Data in the English way (day-ta). I always though Americans pronounced it dar-ta.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqwx2XFb1fQ

 

[T'Girl]

Re: Bashir, I find it jarring that his parents sound almost Cockney even though he himself speaks with a public-school accent. I've always wondered about that discrepancy

One explaination from a few years back on the board was the originally Bashir spoke exactly like his parents, but he heard others speaking differently at some point in his life and deliberately changed the way he speaks.

 

[hux]

Wouldn't there still be accents in what ever language the UT is translating? The audience isn't always hearing a UT translation, especially when the speaker is presented as an English speaker using English, which is apparently "Federation Standard".

I'm not sure if we've ever seen this in the show but for example, imagine a Greek speaking Greek to Picard. Picard would hear English... but would he hear an accent?

And if not, wouldn't the Greek people be offended by this (their language and accent being homogenised by the Federation into English).

And if the French language is no longer spoken (presumably because the French now speak English) then wouldn't the French accent (as we know it... based on speakers of French speaking a second language) have died out and been replaced with a new French accent (based on the French having English as their first language).

This, of course, is predicated on French no longer being a living language (which still hasn't been determined).

I think that made sense.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqwx2XFb1fQ

Thanks. Aside from reminding me how disrespectful Pulaski was to Data, that clip proves I'm not losing my mind. some Americans definitely do pronounce the word as dah-ta.

 

[UssGlenn]

Re: Bashir, I find it jarring that his parents sound almost Cockney even though he himself speaks with a public-school accent. I've always wondered about that discrepancy

One explaination from a few years back on the board was the originally Bashir spoke exactly like his parents, but he heard others speaking differently at some point in his life and deliberately changed the way he speaks.

His desire to distance himself from his parents, since he resents them for enhancing him, could be a good reason for him not wanting to sound like them. That accent belonged to "Jules" and that's not who he is anymore.

 

[Kor]

This reminds me of old World War II movies in which the German soldiers all speak English with a bad German accent (to each other). Come to think of it, this is still common, isn't it? I'll have to watch "Captain America: The First Avenger" again.

There was some TV or radio drama that had an escaped Nazi war criminal who passed for an American, speaking American English with no foreign accent whatsoever. But as soon as the heroes discovered his true background, he reverted to speaking English with a strong German accent.

Anyway, I think that even in the US it is common for those with a regional accent to work hard to get rid of it if they move somewhere with a more "neutral" accent, especially for certain professions that place them in the public eye.

Kor

 

[at Quark's]

Wouldn't there still be accents in what ever language the UT is translating? The audience isn't always hearing a UT translation, especially when the speaker is presented as an English speaker using English, which is apparently "Federation Standard".

I'm not sure if we've ever seen this in the show but for example, imagine a Greek speaking Greek to Picard. Picard would hear English... but would he hear an accent?

And if not, wouldn't the Greek people be offended by this (their language and accent being homogenised by the Federation into English).

Perhaps it would be a matter of personal preference.

In general, I would like my English (or any foreign language I speak) to sound near-native or native (an unattainable goal BTW). That's not because I would be ashamed of my non-nativeness shimmering through, but simply because if I have to speak a foreign language anyway, I'd rather like to do it as well as possible while I'm at it (and perhaps improving a bit in the process)-- and that would include pronunciation.

So I suppose that if I had a Trek style UT that were capable of (near) perfect translation at my disposal, I would expect it to do so, and not render my native speech into an accent-laden English translation. That would be my personal choice though.

Perhaps it could render the Greek of the person you mentioned into a Greek-accented English translation, if that person desired it to do so.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Wouldn't there still be accents in what ever language the UT is translating? The audience isn't always hearing a UT translation, especially when the speaker is presented as an English speaker using English, which is apparently "Federation Standard".

I'm not sure if we've ever seen this in the show but for example, imagine a Greek speaking Greek to Picard. Picard would hear English... but would he hear an accent?

And if not, wouldn't the Greek people be offended by this (their language and accent being homogenised by the Federation into English).

And if the French language is no longer spoken (presumably because the French now speak English) then wouldn't the French accent (as we know it... based on speakers of French speaking a second language) have died out and been replaced with a new French accent (based on the French having English as their first language).

This, of course, is predicated on French no longer being a living language (which still hasn't been determined).

I think that made sense.

I don't see why it would give them an accent.

I also think many humans are bilingual. Speaking Federation Standard and a regional language. For some Federation Standard may be the secondary language and they speak it with an accent. There may be planetary accents as well. An Alpha Centauri accent or a Martian accent. Non-Human worlds may have accented Federation Standard as well. Someone like Miranda Jones, who spent considerable time on Vulcan may speak with a "Vulcanian accent".

 

[T'Girl]

Perhaps it could render the Greek of the person you mentioned into a Greek-accented English translation, if that person desired it to do so.

If a person were a civilian, I could see them "setting" their personal universal translator to render their speech with an accent. You could choose this, like some kind of fashion app.

You could also program your translator to include local idioms instead of direct translations, if you moved from Rio to Boston, the translator would change "incrível" into "wicked."

 

[at Quark's]

Perhaps it could render the Greek of the person you mentioned into a Greek-accented English translation, if that person desired it to do so.

If a person were a civilian, I could see them "setting" their personal universal translator to render their speech with an accent. You could choose this, like some kind of fashion app.

You could also program your translator to include local idioms instead of direct translations, if you moved from Rio to Boston, the translator would change "incrível" into "wicked."

Still, there are two parties involved. Say that I like to have my speech translated into heavily Cockney accented English, yet Picard (or just another civilian) wants to hear Received Pronunciation English only, what would happen ?

 

[T'Girl]

Hmm, I guess it would depend on how many UT were in play, wouldn't it?

What if Picard was speaking in French, and I instructed my translate to render everything into English as spoken by seven year old Shirley Temple?

 

[hux]

This is my point.

Either the hearer chooses if and how they hear an accent (leading to comedy gold) or the Federation (in an attempt to avoid sillines) requires a standardised version for all accents which forces a homogenised standard English language AND standardised English accent on everyone. This would surely piss off everyone whose first language (and accent) isn't English.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

This reminds me of old World War II movies in which the German soldiers all speak English with a bad German accent (to each other). Come to think of it, this is still common, isn't it?

It depends.

IIRC, in the Tom Cruise movie about the July 20th Plot (the assassination attempt against Hitler), Tom's character is German yet speaks with no accent at all - he's "really" speaking German the whole time, yet we hear him in his normal American voice. And in The Hunt for Red October, the actors playing Russians are actually speaking Russian, yet we hear them in English with their normal accents, so for example we hear Sean Connery playing a Russian sub commander yet in his normal Scottish accent..

Probably just depends on dramatic license.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Usually its just a conceit to drive home the point that the character is X nationality.