What Happened to the French?

[uniderth]

It was, after all, the "language of diplomacy" in the modern era, due to its specific and unambiguous use of vocabulary and grammar. It would make more sense if the Federation, being a diplomatically-oriented organization, adapt French as its primary language.

it makes me wonder though, why English became standard rather than one of the existing galactic powers. Certainly there was already some form of "Galactic Language" in use before earth joined the interstellar community. If you're looking for a unambiguous, logical language it would probably be Vulcanian.

But then again maybe we westerners just did what we do best; visit some place and then obliterate their culture with our ethnocentrism.

I suppose this could explain the "no wonder they were conquered" comment from McCoy. Even though in another episode Spock said they could never conceive of a conqueror.

 

[137th Gebirg]

^^^ Entirely possible. The Vulcans were always very reluctant to allow the humans free reign into the galaxy. This was exemplified throughout Enterprise's early seasons. We had only just emerged from a devastating world war not even a century before, still with very hostile and provincial attitudes towards species outside our own system. It would stand to reason that our forward expansion did just that, in the form of imposing our own standard language. In this case, English, as it was likely the most frequently spoken language on Earth, post-war. It may very well have been the result of 22nd century Earth-centric imperialism, which probably happened because of humanity's central role in brokering peace between the Vulcans, Andorians and Tellerites, resulting in the founding of the Federation.

 

[Nerys Myk]

In the 24th Century, France is part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and France. Like Welsh, Scots Gaelic and other non English languages in the UK, French is still spoken by a minority of the population. There is a certain amount of French pride and a vocal indepence movement. France joined the UK following the return of Normandy to the British Crown after WWIII.

 

[137th Gebirg]

So the UK went back to its old imperialistic and expansionist ways, filling the vacuum of leadership in a post-apocalyptic Earth?

Yeah, I could actually see that happening.

 

[MacLeod]

As you say, hux, I also believe that English eventually dominated the Earth as its primary language. Due to the advent of the universal translator, left all remaining languages and other cultural provincialism generally obsolete.

Either that, or everyone has a U.T., and is speaking a different language, but we as the audience (with our own U.T.) always hears English.

But that does fly in the face of Data's statement you cited about French, so I'm going with the first bit.

The sloppy and inconsistent way in which the Klingon language has been handled in the series and has always bothered me. If everyone had a U.T., either in their comm-badge, how is it that sometimes we all conveniently hear "Qapla'" instead of "Victory"? Never in a million years should someone who speaks English ever hear the word "Qapla'" or hear themselves speak that word to others unless it was specifically programmed into the U.T. as an exception. Managing such a multi-lingual and accepted communal "white list" of foreign words could start getting overly complicated for people, I would think.
.

But the English language itself borrows words from other languages, just because Quapla' is Klingon in origin doesn't mean it wouldn't make it's way into the English language.

 

[137th Gebirg]

But the UT would have to be specifically programmed to view Qapla' as a white-listed exception, because there would already be a known English equivalent in the translation matrix. What about all the other native Klingon phrases we continuously hear blustered about throughout TNG, DS9, Voyager and the movies? Klingon Opera being sung on DS9's promenade? General Chang's "To Be or Not To Be" in "the Original Klingon"? Are all those phrases also a part of the UT white-list? That would get extremely difficult to maintain after a while, particularly once hostilities between the Federation and Klingons ended and co-mingling of cultures began.

Star Trek III was an interesting contrast, because Kruge intentionally spoke English with his senior officers and Klingon to his lower crew. Otherwise, why would they flip-flop back and forth on the BPO bridge like that? There would be no reason for it; it should be either all Klingon or all "translated" English, without distinction. Therefore, definitely two languages were being spoken there. FASA, taking their lead from John M. Ford's book "The Final Reflection" (IIRC - possibly vice-versa) logically explained it as being an indication of higher social and military status to know "Galactic Standard" and be able to speak it amongst the elite warrior class without the unwashed masses knowing what they were saying, or something to that effect. That way, the UT could be theoretically "disabled" during a conversation with a Klingon, with the assumption that he/she actually knows Galactic Standard and is allowed to speak native Klingon untranslated when appropriate. It actually fits the canon nicely.

This his getting too bloody complicated!

And I am NOT a cunning linguist!

 

[hux]

I seem to recall VOY had episodes where the audio did not match the lip movements when they were communicating ship-to-ship and the image was on the main viewscreen. At least a couple of episodes.

I don't recall that. The only Voyager episode I can think of where the UT didn't grasp something was counterpoint. Interestingly, we the audience hear the correct translation but Janeway doesn't.

KASHYK: Still, most people make the effort. We don't exactly embrace outsiders.
JANEWAY: Gaharay?
KASHYK: It means strangers.

 

[T'Girl]

I occasionally watch Trek which is dubbed into Spanish, so the lips not matching the words is normal there.

 

[137th Gebirg]

Do they dub the Klingon and other alien languages into Spanish as well?

 

[Greg Cox]

Perhaps they're not speaking English at all. Maybe they're speaking a 24th century language descended from English; and we are just hearing/seeing English through the UTs in our TVs.

That makes sense, but doesn't match up with various old episodes where the dialogue specifically refers to them speaking English, like in "Space Seed," where Khan is initially puzzled to hear English spoken aboard the Enterprise.

"I thought I heard . . . English?"

I think there's a reference to the crew speaking English in "Yesterday is Tomorrow," too, although I can't recall the actual citation offhand.

 

[K'Toska]

"Q'apla" could very well be a loan word and be programmed into the UT as such.

 

[Kor]

In the early 21st century, English is becoming more internationally used in business and scientific/technical circles than French. Thus, people in the many countries that used French as an official or second language for decades are now having to learn English, even though French has traditionally been their lifeline to more advanced countries.

It's hard to imagine English supplanting French within France itself, though.

Interestingly, French is an extinct language in "Futurama."

Kor

 

[Kirby]

That Picard speaks French with a English accent, and speaks English with an English accent, might indicate that English (British version) is the main language in France.

Patrick Stewart was on The Nerdist podcast a few weeks ago, and he mentioned that he actually recorded a version of "Space the Final Frontier..." with a French accent.
He then went on to do a comical French version of it.

 

[T'Girl]

I think there's a reference to the crew speaking English in "Yesterday is Tomorrow," too, although I can't recall the actual citation offhand.

Bread and Circuses makes no sense unless they're speaking English, no other language has the words for Son (of God) and Sun (in the sky) sound the same.

(The confusion totally doesn't work in Spanish)

 

[Hound of UIster]

Data makes some comment about the French language being obscure which offends Picard.

I gather it's generally accepted in Trek that English dominates Earth but why would French be obscure only three centuries from now?

It's "obscure" even now. Chinese/Spanish/English are the dominant languages in real life.

 

[Timo]

But the UT would have to be specifically programmed to view Qapla' as a white-listed exception, because there would already be a known English equivalent in the translation matrix.

Would there, though? English includes words like kindergarten or schadenfreude instead of accepting an "English equivalent", because something would be lost in translation (brevity, say). It also often gives different meaning to the same word depending on the spelling it borrows from another language: the mutton and sheep thing.

I could easily see two categories of Klingon words quickly becoming English words, especially when run through the UT: words specific to the way Klingons wage war against us (English still remembers "reich", "blitz" or "flak", say), and Klingon curses (the UT might well have a default setting where it refuses to translate those for Victorian reasons, but the users would probably opt for that anyway, finding Klingon curses cool).

That said, yes, Kirk's crew spoke English. Although whether that was because of the UT or not, we can freely speculate. Spock would have learned to vocalize the actual language, certainly. But would Chekov? He would probably be less capable and less willing, if the UT alternative existed and Starfleet didn't fire those who flunked Oxfordian. What do we make of his funny accent?

All that said, for my part Hound nailed it. French always was obscure by Data's objective standards, and Picard's annoyance is largely because he realizes that.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[hux]

It's "obscure" even now. Chinese/Spanish/English are the dominant languages in real life.

I'm not sure anyone today would describe French as an "obscure" language even with the dominance of other languages. Data is clearly implying that French is an archaic, dying language. Even Picard doesn't correct this; instead he points out that for centuries it was a great language of Earth. Was.

Memory Alpha and Beta both seem to accept that French is a dead/dying language. Memory Alpha's article on the French language in Star trek begins with the words... French was a major language of Earth.

...

RE: UT

If an alien says aluminium, do Yanks hear aloo-minum while Brits hear al-ooh-min-ee-yum?

Let's call the whole thing off.

 

[Timo]

I don't see those "implications". I see Data saying that French is "an obscure language", which is undoubtedly true at all points of history, with only a tiny part of Earth's population plus perhaps Trelane dabbling in the language.

Picard counters that by saying that French "for centuries represented civilization", which seems to do nothing to dissuade Data - implying he was talking about something completely different. Such as absolutes, in terms of which French always was obscure, rather than symbolic values.

In addition, Data would be factually correct in disputing the effectiveness of Picard's retort, too. Many languages represented civilization, definitely among them Mandarin or Swahili, and once that's out of the way, French still loses.

In other words, there's nothing in Data's phrasing about French having been bigger in the past. And he doesn't seem to agree with Picard's insistence that it used to be bigger in the past, either.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[SPCTRE]

they surrendered

(sorry not sorry)

 

[at Quark's]

I like this reasoning. It almost has an HGTTG Babel Fish aspect to it, where the UT is not just a Google-translate-like device, but imbued with an advanced adaptive AI capable of adjusting brain wave patterns of the owner, allowing them to actually speak the language of the person to whom they are speaking. And how could it so quickly learn a language it's never even heard before with only a few words unless it was in proximity with the other speaker, to the point that it could pick up on brain wave patterns? This treads more deeply into science fantasy than science fiction, but still as good an explanation as any that I could think of.

It would also account for scenes as in "cause and effect":

"I am experiencing nIb'poH.
<pause>
The feeling I have done this before."

The UT would have to be able to pick up the intention of the speaker to use the Klingon term specifically and let him explain it himself, hence that it shouldn't translate the term for him into 'déjà vu' or anything of the kind.

(That's assuming Worf is speaking Klingon. On the other hand, he could very well be speaking Federation Standard, being a trained SF officer. I don't think there is any source establishing this ?)