What Happened to the French?

[Timo]

Messing with one person's "brain waves" (or the signals between the brain and the hearing and vocalizing organs) should be enough.

We don't really need to assume that anybody's personal, implanted or worn UT is capable of instantly understanding an alien language, say - most every instance of our heroes interacting with aliens is preceded by their ship's computer having a good chance at interacting with the computers of the aliens, doing all sorts of secret handshakes and sharing of getting-to-know packages. It would then be simple enough for that smart and capable computer to upload the necessary skills to the personal UTs for subsequent use.

Indeed, "Basics" shows that personal UTs don't allow people to learn new languages (of the cavemen), but they do allow for everybody to keep on talking in already known languages (Kes might have learned English, but I very much doubt Neelix would!).

"I am experiencing nIb'poH.
<pause>
The feeling I have done this before."

Substitute déjà vu for nIb'poH and repeat the mystery. How come the UT knows not to translate French?

No need to read anybody's mind. If somebody utters "déjà vu", it by common convention is something that should not be translated; the same is probably true of nIb'poH.

Whether the perfect lip synch, complete grammar and realtime processing we see is real is debatable. The one ability our brain excels in is fooling itself: we create stories out of story fragments, complete intelligent phrases out of misheard bad grammar (or the occasional gust of wind combined with a duck honking, if we aren't careful), and faces out of random cracks in a rock face. The UT only need tease the brain a bit more and its piss-poor, badly lagging translation job suddenly starts to sound eloquent!

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Kor]

Data makes some comment about the French language being obscure which offends Picard.

I gather it's generally accepted in Trek that English dominates Earth but why would French be obscure only three centuries from now?

It's "obscure" even now. Chinese/Spanish/English are the dominant languages in real life.

It still has a substantial global presence:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organisation_internationale_de_la_Francophonie

Kor

 

[Hound of UIster]

220 Million

http://www.diplomatie.gouv.fr/en/fr...phony-1113/the-status-of-french-in-the-world/

Around 3 percent of the world population. And this seems to be a high end estimate.

 

[hux]

It still has a substantial global presence:

And even if it didn't, there are still millions of French people speaking French in France.

Data describing it as "obscure" suggests that either Earth has embraced English as the default language or that the French has declined in use.

I'm still unclear on canon. Alpha says "French was a major Earth language". The implication clearly being that French has died out.

Is this canon or not?

 

[Kor]

220 Million

http://www.diplomatie.gouv.fr/en/fr...phony-1113/the-status-of-french-in-the-world/

Around 3 percent of the world population. And this seems to be a high end estimate.

That's pretty substantial.... many more speakers than languages such as Japanese, German, Korean, Turkish, Vietnamese, etc. that nobody ever describes as "obscure."

Kor

 

[Hando]

It still has a substantial global presence:

And even if it didn't, there are still millions of French people speaking French in France.

Data describing it as "obscure" suggests that either Earth has embraced English as the default language or that the French has declined in use.

I'm still unclear on canon. Alpha says "French was a major Earth language". The implication clearly being that French has died out.

Is this canon or not?

Canon yes, but think about it. We should distinguish the levels: Earth, human, Federation, interstellar.

Is French a major Earth language in the 24th century? Probably yes, even if those French-speaking Africans were eliminated during the Eugenic Wars. Or the French language could have been suppressed in Africa by the Muslim Bloc and/or Pan-Semite Union. It may be one of the official languages of Pan-African Alliance or African Confederation, along with English and Arabic.

Is French a major human language in the 24th century?
This is now dicey, and here I would say no. I remember only one French colony world, New Paris, if there are more please enlighten me. And even this planet is known as "New Paris", rather then as "Nouveau Paris", so draw your own conclusions. Perhaps the major push for space just came from the English-speaking world. Or one of the requirements for space colonist was the knowledge of English language.

Is French a major Federation language in the 24th century?
No. Same as above, but think, if there are over 6000 languages on Earth now, how many there must be in the Federation? Then French is an obscure language.

Is French a major interstellar language in the 24th century?
Same as above.

220 Million

http://www.diplomatie.gouv.fr/en/fr...phony-1113/the-status-of-french-in-the-world/

Around 3 percent of the world population. And this seems to be a high end estimate.

That's pretty substantial.... many more speakers than languages such as Japanese, German, Korean, Turkish, Vietnamese, etc. that nobody ever describes as "obscure."

Kor

Just a drop in the the bucket.

 

[Timo]

I remember only one French colony world, New Paris, if there are more please enlighten me.

Apart from ambiguous Latin names which might also be French, DS9 also has New France.

We have no idea what languages are spoken there and what the native name for the place is. The UFP may well go for a name or a translation that the locals don't really agree with. But absent other data, New France and New Berlin and the like are generic rather than national - after all, nationalism was supposed to be outdated in the first season of TNG, too.

Then again, we do have the apparently thoroughly Scotch Caldos II from "Sub Rosa", and a couple of other colonizing parties with decided Earth-national characteristics (aka stereotypes). A major reason for founding a colony in Trek seems to be a desire to be contrarian, so "generic" probably actually is relatively rare!

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Kemaiku]

220 Million

http://www.diplomatie.gouv.fr/en/fr...phony-1113/the-status-of-french-in-the-world/

Around 3 percent of the world population. And this seems to be a high end estimate.

That's pretty substantial.... many more speakers than languages such as Japanese, German, Korean, Turkish, Vietnamese, etc. that nobody ever describes as "obscure."

Kor

Only 2/3 the population of the USA. Not that high really, considering the top 3 total over 1 billion (~5 times) that amount, each.

 

[Relayer1]

Every single time a disaster happened on Earth, Paris was destroyed. Usually at the start of the incident.

The French, with admirable determination, rebuilt and reoccupied before Paris was once more destroyed, losing millions each time.

This continued year after year (as evidenced in the cinema film records) and eventually, with France utterly depopulated, the remnants admitted defeat and left for New Paris. Unfortunately, the entire colony was unexpectedly destroyed by a malfuncioning Preserver obelisk.

The entire area formerly known as France became the Greater Germany National Park and Impact Crater...

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

The entire area formerly known as France became the Greater Germany National Park and Impact Crater...

So where were Picard and Jenice Mannheim having dinner, then?

 

[137th Gebirg]

Why, an idealized and romanticized version of Paris carefully constructed and programmed into the holodeck from old 20th and 21st century photos that survived WWIII, of course!

24th century Paris itself is one massive holodeck, sitting on top of the crater, with mobile holo-emitters embedded in artificial pet poodles and street mimes.

Did I just have a Guy Gardener moment there? Hmmm...

 

[Relayer1]

Why, an idealized and romanticized version of Paris carefully constructed and programmed into the holodeck from old 20th and 21st century photos that survived WWIII, of course!

24th century Paris itself is one massive holodeck, sitting on top of the crater, with mobile holo-emitters embedded in artificial pet poodles and street mimes.

Did I just have a Guy Gardener moment there? Hmmm...

I like you.

You're weird.

 

[at Quark's]

Substitute déjà vu for nIb'poH and repeat the mystery. How come the UT knows not to translate French?

No need to read anybody's mind. If somebody utters "déjà vu", it by common convention is something that should not be translated; the same is probably true of nIb'poH.

That's possible, but that would mean that nIb'poH is a loan word that became a standard expression in the federation standard language(s), and that it's just a coincidence that Worf -also a Klingon- is using it and is adding the explanation for our benefit. Or would that be the UT even functioning through the fourth wall ?

Come to think of it, we can't even be sure "nIb'poH" is Klingon. It might be Tellarite, for all we know.

Funny, this ... reminding me how many assumptions I actually make all the time without even being conscious of it

 

[MacLeod]

Well one in-universe explantion could be along these lines

Just as today we have a language for flights, i.e Pilots are expected to be able to speak and understand English. The same might hold true for the early Federation Starfleet, that a common langauge was decided upon (after ll UT could fail) and given the hostilities races like the Andorians and Vulcans had had over, they might be reluctant to accept each others language as being the one to use for these common language for the combined starfleet so just as Earth likely became the de facto Capital world, English became the de facto langauge of Starfleet.

 

[T'Girl]

Is French a major interstellar language in the 24th century?

That might be less a matter of what the dominate language on Earth is, but instead more a matter of who left Earth behind, who emigrated. In my home state of Washington, after English and Spanish, the third most often spoken language is Vietnamese. Today the Vietnamese can't leave "the old country" fast enough. There might be many dozens of colony planets in the 24th century where French is the majority language.

so just as Earth likely became the de facto Capital world, English became the de facto langauge of Starfleet.

English might have been the "language of Starfleet" owing to who the majority of people who first entered Starfleet at it's founding, the organizers, and who set it's initial traditions. If the NX-01 could be seen as a Starfleet microcosm, of the Humans there were many Americans and a British subject.

It was based out of San Fransisco, not Cairo or Jakarta.

 

[eyeresist]

Data makes some comment about the French language being obscure which offends Picard.

I gather it's generally accepted in Trek that English dominates Earth but why would French be obscure only three centuries from now?

Hmm, this explains the background of those Futurama jokes:

[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hawRbECNX8o[/yt]

I see Data saying that French is "an obscure language", which is undoubtedly true at all points of history

Untrue. After Latin stopped being the cultural language of Europe, French was one of the dominant languages any cultured person had to know. I think only Italian was more important.

 

[Timo]

That's possible, but that would mean that nIb'poH is a loan word that became a standard expression in the federation standard language(s), and that it's just a coincidence that Worf -also a Klingon- is using it and is adding the explanation for our benefit.

Umm, I'd see that more as an inevitability: if it's a loan word (in English or Klingonaase), or an idiom that "newcomers" would have hard time grasping (like déjà vu actually is even to the French), Worf would feel compelled to explain it, just like a human might feel the need to explain déjá vu.

But actually, I see this as analogous to the famous DS9 "Blood Oath" exchange where three Klingons and Dax sit together and speak what sounds like English. Dax to Koloth: "I used to call you D'akturak, <turns to the crowd> Iceman, <turns back> because..."

So, what we hear is Dax translating Klingon to English for the benefit of Klingons! But more probably, that's a double translation: Dax is speaking Klingon and saying "blah blah Iceman, D'akturak, blah" - the exact mirror of what we hear. And "our" UTs faithfully reproduce the effect of what Dax is doing.

Similarly, Worf might have been using the phrase déjà vu in French, and the UT erred on the side of caution, reproducing the effect.

Come to think of it, we can't even be sure "nIb'poH" is Klingon. It might be Tellarite, for all we know.

Indeed. Or ancient Klingon, or Southern Klingon, or whatever. We know many Klingons don't speak Okrandian Klingon, after all!

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Timo]

After Latin stopped being the cultural language of Europe, French was one of the dominant languages any cultured person had to know.

And at that point, a language used by cultured people would definitely count as "obscure"!

Timo Saloniemi

 

[T'Girl]

Dax to Koloth: "I used to call you D'akturak, <turns to the crowd> Iceman, <turns back> because...".

Have you discounted the possibility that "D'akturak" is a word from the Trill language?

This would explain Dax's need to translate it for the benefit of a group of Klingons, who presumably don't speak Trill.

 

[Jeffe525]

During the Eugenics War, they surrendered for the last time...

But seriously, what do you mean, "What happened to the French?"

Nothing, as far as I know. Picard is French, and his English accent is just 1980's Hollywood figuring (correctly) that most Americans are too stupid to tell the difference between a French accent and a British accent.

Also, the UFP President and Council are in Paris. I say the French gets the better end of the stick in GR's world.